SPEAKER_0 [00:00:00]
Dramas, please.
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:13]
Yeah.
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:20]
This is life
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:22]
with a twist of lemon.
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:24]
So remember last week, I was telling you how I knew there had to be something out there that would track my app usage on my Mac?
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:32]
Without sending it to the cloud and sending off all your data to a third party. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I found it. Oh, yeah?
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:40]
It's called TimeSync,
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:42]
s I n k,
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:44]
and,
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:45]
I found it on the App Store, the Mac App Store. And so far, I mean, I'm pretty pleased. It's it's not, like, super fancy, but it, does the job.
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:55]
You did send me a screenshot of that and looked kind of like activity monitor.
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:00]
Is there a way to, like, run reports or compare week to week usage?
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:05]
I don't know about
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:07]
comparing.
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:09]
There is, like so I can look at a report for today or this week,
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:14]
and it's got, like like, slices or, like, it's like a graph kind of thing, you can see as I oscillate back and forth. Any
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:22]
guesses as to what my most used app is?
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:27]
Terminal?
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:29]
No.
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:31]
That's a good guess, though. Safari?
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:34]
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Safari.
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:36]
Apparently, a third of my time
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:39]
is spent on Safari.
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:41]
So there you go. That's probably lower than a lot of people these days
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:45]
because you think about what most people are doing, especially if they're in
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:49]
using cloud stuff like Office three sixty five or Google Apps or something, almost everything that you do is in a browser these days.
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:57]
Yeah. So interestingly,
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:59]
next up,
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:00]
oddly, I mean, was to my surprise, mail.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:03]
And then it looks like the finder.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:06]
Messages and Visual Studio Code are tied
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:09]
Nice. With Word and Excel next in line.
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:13]
You've been doing a lot of Excel stuff recently.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:16]
I've been doing a lot of Excel stuff. It'd be interesting to see
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:19]
what this looked like
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:21]
the week before when I was doing year end statements at church because I'm pretty sure
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:27]
that
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:28]
those would have, that would have been a lot higher, but, you know
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:32]
oh, cool. Sounds like there's some room for improvement,
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:35]
but what you save in your
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:38]
privacy concerns probably makes up for it.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:41]
Yeah.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:42]
And I think I think this app cost $5.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:45]
So it was $5 well spent as far as I'm concerned. And $5 flat, not $5 every month?
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:51]
Correct. Yes. This was a one time purchase. Nice. Interestingly,
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:55]
the company and I I'm drawing a blank on the name. The company that made this also made
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:00]
I think it's like the better file renamer or something like that Mhmm. Which I have also purchased previously
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:06]
for some, like, bulk file operations. So I was familiar with the company, which also
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:11]
was encouraging as far as why I would purchase it.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:15]
Well, nice. Glad you found something, Stan. For now, I'm probably gonna stick with rescue time and send them all my data.
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:24]
Just keep shipping it off to big brother. Yep.
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:28]
Alright.
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:29]
Alright, John.
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:31]
What's the weather report look like where you're at?
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:35]
So today, schools were closed, like, all over the Eastern Part Of Iowa.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:39]
They probably did not need to be closed.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:42]
We got some ice,
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:44]
but it wasn't too bad. It's supposed to snow overnight, so it's looking like tomorrow
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:50]
might be worse than today was.
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:52]
So if I look ahead to the only day that really matters,
SPEAKER_1 [00:03:56]
there is it looks like wind on Thursday. It's gonna be windy.
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:01]
But Saturday
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:02]
is
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:03]
just mostly cloudy. Yep.
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:06]
Which is good news because if that weather holds true
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:10]
to my location,
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:12]
I will be headed your way Thursday
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:14]
evening.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:15]
Stan is coming to visit me for the first time since I've gotten married,
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:20]
which was the only time you've ever come to visit me.
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:24]
Well, it's not exactly like you had a place that I could just come and stay. It's true. And we used to see each other more often too. So Is there a guest bedroom? You've got a guest bedroom. Right? I do.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:35]
So the bed situation is kinda like the bed situation that you put me up in in Seymour for all those years.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:42]
So just a pullout bed
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:45]
in the lovely purple room,
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:48]
which Anna likes the color of, so I don't think we're gonna be painting the purple room.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:53]
The way this is a dark purple, wasn't it? Yeah. It's pretty dark. So you you might end up sleeping all day.
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:59]
Do I need to bring my own pillow?
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:02]
You told me that you didn't use pillows,
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:04]
but no, Stan. We have a pillow if you would like to use one. I said I use a very thin pillow. It's almost like So then you probably should bring your own pillow.
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:13]
Okay.
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:16]
Good pillows are so hard to find. That's one thing I struggle with as I travel for work and things. Like, I I wind up in these places that have these big poofy pillows, and really, I just want this, like, nice thin
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:29]
piece of support. Now do I remember correctly that you're allergic to down?
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:34]
Oh, I am deathly allergic to down. Like, I will die if I am encompassed
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:39]
in down.
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:40]
I just remember you requesting
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:43]
special pillows
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:44]
whenever
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:45]
you were at a hotel.
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:46]
Yep. Yep. I definitely have done that. Fortunately, now,
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:50]
it's very rare that you get a legit down pillow. Right. But,
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:54]
yeah, back in the day. So Nice. There you go.
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:59]
So you,
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:01]
you tweeted this week that you said you said executive decision, we're talking about this on the next Twist of Lemon episode. Do you remember
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:09]
the
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:11]
the the tweet
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:13]
that Right. You
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:15]
responded to? You responded to somebody asking for advice for an entry level developer who's just starting out.
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:26]
And I think your your tweet was something like, don't
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:30]
kill yourself with working. Work when you work Yeah. But don't overwork.
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:35]
Let me read this. So,
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:37]
I saw this because someone I follow, engineer at Facebook,
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:41]
Dan Abramov Abramov,
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:44]
retweeted this tweet, and this is, I think, Kate Haney
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:48]
is how I attempted to pronounce her name.
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:51]
She writes, Twitter friends, I'm trying to plan some goals for my first year as a full time software engineer. That's what I do for a living.
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:58]
And I would love your advice. What are some things you wish you learned or prior prioritized your first year?
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:05]
My response was time management. Work when you work, but don't overwork. When I was new, I kept absurdly long days, sometimes worked on the weekend, and was always connected by email. I'm a better engineer now that I manage time boundaries for myself.
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:19]
And that prompted your response, which I'm curious, like, what like, why is this something you wanna talk about? Because I think that this applies to far more than just software development.
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:29]
I think that we currently
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:31]
live in a culture that idolizes
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:35]
being busy,
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:37]
and we've lost all
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:40]
sort of art of being bored or just not doing anything.
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:46]
Okay. So that's interesting.
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:48]
I
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:51]
like, not working doesn't have to mean you're idle. Right?
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:55]
Right.
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:57]
This may be an area where you and I disagree slightly because, like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:01]
one of the reasons that I now,
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:05]
try to maintain more sane work hours is not so that can just, like, lounge on the couch. It's so that I can do things around the house, so I can help cook,
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:14]
so that I can run my kids to ballet,
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:17]
things of that sort. Or,
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:19]
I spend a lot of my spare time doing volunteer work. So I wouldn't describe myself as terribly idle.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:27]
Do you enjoy cooking, Stan,
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:28]
or does it stress you out? I do. No. No. I I mean, I I enjoy cooking. Yeah. When you go for a bike ride when it's nice outside and not 10 degrees,
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:38]
do you enjoy that, or do you view it as work?
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:41]
I I enjoy that, but that doesn't and I don't think of it as work, but that doesn't mean it's idle time. I I wouldn't necessarily call it idle,
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:49]
as much as
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:51]
recharging
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:52]
or fostering creativity.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:54]
You do the same thing reading.
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:59]
So what's a better way to describe this than idle time? Because to me, idle time is, like, when we're done here, I'm going to go sit idly on the couch and watch another episode of Marvel's Agents of Shield. That to me is idle time.
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:13]
So would you consider
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:15]
me walking around the block with my pipe idle time?
SPEAKER_1 [00:09:20]
I mean, no. I wouldn't. I I think to me, idle time is, like, a a truly lazy, not doing anything.
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:28]
So so I think we agree, Stan.
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:31]
Like, sitting on the couch is probably
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:34]
has a negative impact when you're sitting in front of a screen. But if you're sitting around talking with friends or doing something that
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:43]
basically is recharging you, I don't know how to describe it.
SPEAKER_1 [00:09:47]
I I think I get it. Like, you you let the mind focus on something else. You engage in another way. You're still exercising that muscle, if you will, but not,
SPEAKER_1 [00:09:57]
not on a single thing for eight hours. Right? Like, that I think I think that's
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:02]
to me, part of the point is that my mind is capable of functioning effectively
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:08]
on a thing for a certain period of time that I need to shift to something else. And so for me, right, like, I used to work,
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:16]
long hours
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:18]
often in a stationary position,
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:20]
and then I would go to sleep. And I'd wake up, and I'd work long hours again. And I enjoyed my job. Don't get me wrong.
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:28]
But I think, like, in
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:31]
a in a creative role like a software engineer, you get stuck in the zone,
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:35]
and then there's a certain point, there's a threshold where I think you start neglecting other things, and that becomes unhealthy. That's that's like, I think that's the lesson that took me a long time to learn.
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:47]
So
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:48]
your degree is in theology and biblical languages. Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:53]
That's what the paper says.
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:55]
So
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:57]
now you're a software engineer. I'm a you were talking about a job where you're writing code,
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:03]
where you were being a software engineer.
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:06]
How did you fall into that, and
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:09]
how did you fall into those initial problems of working insane hours?
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:15]
Oh, okay. So I
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:19]
I I found
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:20]
programming,
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:21]
like, really web software,
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:23]
interesting
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:24]
when I was in high school.
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:26]
The reason I found the web interesting
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:28]
actually goes all the way back to fourth grade. I won't I won't belabor all that. But,
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:34]
at the end of high school with a couple of friends,
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:38]
I built some
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:40]
software that the teachers that that I had
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:43]
grown close with were using. And eventually, the high school actually bought that software from us, and that was the first time that I made money writing code.
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:53]
And so in the back of my head then through college, this was a way that I could make some scratch to cover, you know, the books I wanted, the runs at Chipotle,
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:03]
and and whatever else. Right? Engagement rates. So
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:06]
yeah. Engagement rates.
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:08]
And and I I did that, right, all through college, kinda, you know,
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:14]
leasing myself out, if you will.
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:16]
And when
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:17]
we when I graduated from college, missus Lemon still had an internship year,
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:23]
and that's how we wound up in Pittsburgh.
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:26]
The intent was that I was just gonna, like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:29]
earn some money,
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:30]
you know, keep keep up on my Greek skills,
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:33]
and hopefully not forget too much Hebrew.
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:35]
And, you know, we figure something different the following year.
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:40]
Instead, what happened was she her her position came full time,
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:45]
and I started to make more money.
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:48]
And
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:49]
that's, like, how I never went back to
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:53]
what I studied
SPEAKER_1 [00:12:54]
for. Right? Like, that's, like, that's how I I I I was in this career field, and I've just never left.
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:01]
I I've got no regrets. Pretty happy. I can take care of my family with what I do. You know? It's it's good all around. But Right. So you're you're a young married couple in Pittsburgh.
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:12]
Sarah's off working hard trying to, you know, establish herself in her career,
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:18]
and you're working from home at the time. Right? Correct. Yep. Yep. So you're you're alone in the townhome. Were you in the townhome at this point? No. No. We actually we had a rental house the first year. We moved into the townhome after her position became full time. So we knew we were gonna stay in Pittsburgh for a little bit, so we bought a house.
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:37]
So you're basically sitting in front of your computer all day. I mean, there's two of you, so don't have that many dishes.
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:44]
You can only clean so much.
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:46]
So And and we didn't really we didn't really cook.
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:49]
We didn't cook, like we do now, so there were a lot less dishes to clean as well.
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:54]
Mac and cheese, frozen pizzas.
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:56]
I've been there.
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:57]
No. We never did frozen pizza. I I can honestly say in our marriage, we've never done frozen people pizza. We've always made it from scratch.
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:04]
We just have, evolved it quite a bit since then. But but so here here's the thing. Right? Like, I,
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:09]
when I started off,
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:11]
I was not full time. I was doing different jobs for different people. And so for me, the more jobs I could do, the more money I could make. And,
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:23]
there was some greed that drove it. It was like, okay. If I work a couple more hours, I can make this much more money. Or, you know, I'm not doing anything right now. I could go log some more hours.
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:34]
And,
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:35]
it was just kinda like that. I I don't wanna say entrepreneurial, but that's kinda what it was. Right? Like, I was I was making money, and I could continue to build this, like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:44]
business that I had essentially, this this, like, contract work business.
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:49]
And I did that for several years.
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:51]
About, gosh,
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:52]
I think about five years, I just did contract work.
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:57]
And I did pretty darn good for myself about the point that we wanted to start a family. I realized that I needed a, you know, quote unquote real job.
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:07]
Really, what I needed was health insurance, stable health insurance, stable income.
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:11]
And I had
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:13]
the first job that I got,
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:15]
like, you know, regular employment in this field was a little challenging
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:20]
in the sense that
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:22]
I I was looking for some place that could pay me comparable to what I was making as a contractor,
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:27]
and that was hard because I was doing pretty good as a contractor. I was also working, you know, seventy five hours or whatever a week Right. And, you know, enjoying it. But when I found a place that was willing to be competitive,
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:41]
I got an offer, and then I started to build out a really would amount to a different set of skills because it wasn't like little projects here or there. It was for a business that had a product, had other team members,
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:53]
and, you know, then I I kinda just kept building that skill from position to position thereafter. Now are you were you putting in,
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:02]
more time at that first real job, we'll call it, even though,
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:06]
yes, we know contracting's
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:08]
work, and they probably work harder than a lot of us do. So,
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:13]
when you started this first job,
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:15]
did you do forty hour with weeks, or were you still working at the 75 to 80?
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:21]
Somewhere in between. So first job,
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:24]
I wanted to impress folks. Right? So I made sure well, first of all, I was more of a morning person back then too. So I got to the office
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:33]
before any of the other engineers did. There were some people in the office at the time I got in, but, I got there first. And then I pretty much made sure that I hung around
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:43]
physically at the office probably at least nine and a half hours. So I I it was, you know, more
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:49]
than an eight hour day.
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:51]
I typically ate lunch at my desk. I brought it, you know, so I worked through lunch like I do now.
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:58]
And some days were longer, some days were shorter. There became a point where I was,
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:03]
like, really kinda
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:05]
starting to make it into mine, right, like the role, and I would then check-in at home
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:11]
and, you know, just, like, follow-up on some things, or I'd have an idea, or sometimes I get it even earlier in the morning to get some of that quiet time. And so I would say pretty typically, I probably worked minimum of fifty hour a week while I was there. And again, I'm not taking a lunch.
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:27]
I I didn't really do breaks. I just I sat on my desk, and I turned through stuff.
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:32]
So,
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:33]
you know, I didn't know any better, though. Right. Right? So so when did that change?
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:38]
What was your wake up call?
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:42]
It was it was
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:44]
when did that change in terms of the hours I worked there or when I stopped stressing
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:49]
about
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:51]
long hours or start stopped, like, ideologically
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:54]
shifted from long hour long hour days?
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:57]
Because those those are two different things. Right. So I imagine that your hours actually changed when kids were in the picture, and you had more responsibilities at home.
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:07]
So I guess when did the ideological
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:10]
change
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:12]
happen?
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:14]
It was pretty late in my career. So I would say
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:17]
it was after I came
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:20]
to Salesforce,
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:22]
but not too long after. So within the last five years.
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:26]
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think the reason is because my current employer,
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:30]
values my time, and so they
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:32]
treat me as a worker differently, which gave me kinda like gave me the opportunity to open my eyes. Right? So I was always paranoid at,
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:41]
previous employers
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:42]
that I wasn't putting enough time. In fact, I even I do at one point prior to this current role, I worked at a place that had an hours board
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:50]
on the stairwell up to the office. So you would badge in, and they would track your
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:55]
badge in and badge out time, and they would
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:58]
total up those hours. You have a running total tally
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:02]
on this board. So it was like a leaderboard for time spent. So it was encouraged? It wasn't a shame board?
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:08]
Exactly.
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:09]
Exactly. And and the thing is, like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:12]
truth be told, the people that were usually winning on that board were not the ones working the hardest. Right.
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:18]
And so I would say maybe that was a little eye opening too. Right? Like, I was starting to realize that this is just like, something about that didn't feel right. It wasn't healthy.
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:27]
By the time I got to where I'm at now,
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:30]
I think there was a there's just more value placed upon a clear head.
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:36]
And
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:37]
by that value being like projected down on me, it kinda like reset the way that I think about the way that I work. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:46]
So
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:47]
your response
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:48]
was multifaceted.
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:50]
One of those parts was work when you work.
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:53]
What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:56]
So
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:57]
I and this is this is one place maybe I disagree or or I'm different from some of my colleagues.
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:04]
When I start my day, like, I am in the zone to work,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:09]
and,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:10]
I don't I don't like
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:11]
I don't know. I I don't normally go off and ride my bike for two hours in the middle of the day and then come back. Right? So,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:19]
I try not to, like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:22]
dilute the waters, if you will,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:24]
by doing, you know, fun and work at the same time,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:29]
or or, like, you know, jump back and forth between
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:33]
something here at home and then something at the office. Does that make sense? Yeah.
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:38]
And that's a personal preference, or do you find something philosophically
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:42]
wrong with the switching between, like, going for a two hour bike ride in the middle of the day?
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:47]
That part is a personal preference. But for me, where it translates to, and this I think I think is important, is when my day is done. Right? Like, when I've accomplished what I set out to do for the day,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:57]
I make a break from my work laptop. Right? I close it up. I set it to the side. I don't, as as this is especially easy now that I'm not on call regularly. I don't carry my work phone. And so I I literally, like, push it out of sight out of mind. And I know it's it's very popular, very common now
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:17]
to carry that work phone with you all the time to be getting notifications
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:22]
for,
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:23]
you know, email or Slack
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:25]
or,
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:26]
in in our world, Chatter. Like, there's a whole bunch of things that you can get inundated with. Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:32]
I I used a work phone
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:34]
for a long time as my only device, but I turned off a lot of notifications
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:38]
so that I could decide when to engage.
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:40]
And I found that, you know, sometimes
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:42]
I was good about not engaging
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:45]
out of, you know, my work mode. Other times, I was bad at it. And I think now that I've switched to a personal device,
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:52]
which, you know, it's a forcing function for me. Right? Like, if I'm at the grocery store,
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:57]
I literally don't have the work phone, so I can't check the work email.
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:01]
For me, I just think that's been better, and it's allowed me to create, like, a nice boundary
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:05]
and,
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:06]
be able to clear my head after hours
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:10]
and then reset in the morning. So when I say work when I work, part of it is personal preference where I just I just like to, you know, get in the zone, work until I'm done, and then, you know, go to do personal stuff.
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:24]
But part of it also is just like to have a serious boundary
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:28]
where I have, like, a no work zone
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:31]
that I can go to at the end of the day. So there's an end to my workday. Right? Right. It doesn't bleed across
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:37]
the the full twenty four hours.
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:41]
Yeah. That makes sense. So the second part of that was but don't overwork.
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:45]
Part of that is you're not putting in crazy amounts of hours. Part of that is not having
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:52]
email notifications coming to you at 09:00 at night or
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:57]
adjust for your workday.
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:59]
But the other part,
SPEAKER_0 [00:23:01]
is really
SPEAKER_0 [00:23:03]
taking time
SPEAKER_0 [00:23:04]
off.
SPEAKER_0 [00:23:05]
Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:07]
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:09]
you know, we call it PTO, personal time off. Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:13]
That's a that's a big deal for me. I used to be awful at taking PTO because
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:19]
I never like, I didn't know when I was gonna need it, so I would bank it, you know, kind of accrue it, amass it. And
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:27]
that like, that just deprives your family. It also deprives you of a chance to get away
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:33]
for more than just, you know, the evening, if you will, and and do a reset. And that's healthy. Like, you look at
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:42]
you look at, like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:45]
school. Right? So
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:48]
general wisdom is that it makes sense between grades to take a break, to unwind,
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:55]
to, kinda reset before you kick off again. I think that that logic
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:00]
applies to adults too,
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:02]
maybe in shorter spans than a month and a half or whatever.
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:06]
But, I I I think there's a lot of value in that. And I think if you look if you look at the
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:11]
the bigwigs
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:13]
of the world, I think they take long vacations,
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:16]
and we don't we don't necessarily, you know, notice it. Right? But, I this struck me when I was reading that book about JPMorgan
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:24]
because the the Morgans, they all took long vacations every year. Like, it was just a it was a big thing. And I'm when I say long, I'm talking about, like, multi month vacations.
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:33]
And so I think I think there's probably some wisdom there that as our culture has just gotten, like, you know, more dense with work.
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:41]
And what I think what I mean by that is, like, work is more immersive to us. Maybe part of that is is having more white collar oriented jobs. I I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:50]
I think that that that wisdom maybe is
SPEAKER_1 [00:24:53]
harder to see.
SPEAKER_0 [00:24:56]
Right.
SPEAKER_0 [00:24:58]
So
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:00]
how do you go about
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:02]
your work
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:03]
week, really? Like, do you have a time at the end of the day where you get things in order for the next day so you can pick up and start? Do you do that in the morning,
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:13]
or do you do that outside of work time kinda
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:17]
focusing your brain on what you're gonna do in the next day or week or whatever makes sense for you?
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:23]
I mean, my job is pretty reactive right now. So
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:27]
it's it's hard to prepare too far ahead. Like, I know that I have
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:31]
areas that I am focused on. Right? I need to be researching,
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:34]
thinking about, whatever.
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:36]
And,
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:37]
I
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:39]
have my calendar is kind of my guide right now in terms of meetings I have, people I need to talk with. And so my start and end of the day kinda looks like this. You know, end of the day, just checking the calendar for tomorrow, make sure things are all in order.
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:53]
I I try to get my inbox as tame
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:56]
as I can, meaning that everything that I needed to respond to before I wrapped up, like, that was urgent has been dealt with. And then, you know, I peace out. In the morning, I've got a routine where I'm, like, checking email.
SPEAKER_1 [00:26:09]
I'm reviewing pull requests.
SPEAKER_1 [00:26:11]
I'm I'm, like, looking on our internal boards,
SPEAKER_1 [00:26:14]
reviewing document changes, and I do that up until I get into meeting mode. Right? So I have a buffer in my morning where there are no meetings pretty consistently every day. It allows me to do that. And then from that point on, I'm reactive until I get to the end of the day.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:27]
Got it.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:28]
Now you said
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:33]
oh, man. Now I'm blanking, but it was brilliant.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:38]
Alright. Well, you, John. It will come to me.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:42]
So,
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:43]
yeah, urgent.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:44]
It was you said, make sure there's nothing urgent. How do you figure out what's urgent
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:50]
and kinda
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:51]
balance that against what's important?
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:54]
And then when there's more things to do than you have time that you've committed to your workday,
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:59]
where do you say no? How do you say no?
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:03]
So okay. Those are two two separate things. First, the on the urgency front. Right? Like, I always look at it through the lens of am I blocking somebody from getting work done? And so for me,
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:13]
urgency is dictated by
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:15]
who I'm blocking.
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:17]
And,
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:18]
know, some some people, you block
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:21]
what they're doing right now, right, immediately, the next thing on their plate. And other people, you're blocking longer term,
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:28]
you know, a week from now, two weeks from now because they're in planning mode. So I have to make those decisions and kinda balance it that way. And
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:37]
urgency there is also dictated by who they are. Right? So if my boss or my boss's boss wants something,
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:44]
I I you know, that's more urgent to me. I'm gonna respond to that faster than, say, one of my peers.
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:49]
That's just the nature of the beast. Right? That's Right. That's how things work in a hierarchy.
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:54]
There there's also, like, my peers in my immediate working group and then my peers in other working groups. And so, you know, you're doing a prioritization exercise where it's like this this request,
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:06]
you know,
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:08]
how important is it compared to the other requests? You just kinda sort it. Now I think in terms of
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:14]
overcommitting and having more to do than you can get done,
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:18]
I think the first thing is you try not to overcommit.
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:21]
Right? And so it's really easy to just say yes to everything. Yeah. I'll do that. Or sure. I'll take a look at that or whatever. And it's it's it's harder, but it's an important skill to be able to say
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:33]
no.
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:34]
No. I don't have time. No. I can't do that right now.
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:38]
Or to say and sometimes I'll do this if, like, a superior comes to me with something.
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:44]
These are the three things that I have to do in the next twenty four hours. Which one of them do you want me to not do so that I can do the one you're requesting?
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:52]
Right? Because at that at that point, we're
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:55]
I I'm not able
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:57]
to make the prior to say prioritization
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:59]
decision for myself.
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:01]
I'm deferring it to
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:03]
someone,
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:05]
you know, further up the the chain, if you will. So what if they say all of them? Sometimes it doesn't. Well,
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:11]
and, you know, I I tell them, here's the order I'm gonna do. And, you know, when
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:16]
we run out of hours, we run out of hours, because that's not a limitless commodity. Right? Right.
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:20]
Time time is bounded and,
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:24]
you know, it is what it is. We just have to deal with that. So most of the time, I don't find myself in that situation.
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:30]
But, you know, you always have you always have somebody who's like, well, I have four number one priorities. Right.
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:36]
And you just have to, you know like, the end of the world's not gonna gonna come if I don't accomplish this. I think in
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:43]
it's you know, I'm not a doctor. Right? So there's no life and death decisions being made in my prioritization
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:50]
bubble sort here.
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:53]
And that that's helpful. Right? That gives me a little bit of an out. Right. But
SPEAKER_1 [00:29:58]
I I think you gotta try and get ahead of that. Like, you gotta try and not get to a point where there's too much in the queue.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:04]
And and sometimes it means asking a manager for help
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:07]
or to alleviate something to take it off your plate.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:11]
I I've gotten, I think, good at
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:15]
kinda
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:16]
pruning my queue, if you will, at least right now. I mean, there's always times where I I feel like I get swamped, but those are less and less common these days it seems.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:26]
That's interesting. Personally, I will say this, John, I think my world is a little easier than yours. Right. Because I'm not in a billable hours situation.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:35]
Right.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:37]
So I don't know. You should describe what you do,
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:39]
how you got into it. This is kinda turned into more of an interview, so all the people who like our normal format are gonna hate this episode, but I've it's been great information for me.
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:50]
So
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:51]
yeah. I mean, I,
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:53]
kinda fell into doing web stuff, just really messing around with it, in high school.
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:59]
I took a web design course in high school, and I built my church's website back then.
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:06]
I got roped into working for you.
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:09]
Actually, I'm pretty sure I begged to work for you early on,
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:13]
and started working with higher things, but initially just as a content manager posting
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:18]
content online when you still had to know HTML to do those things.
SPEAKER_1 [00:31:22]
And Let let's hold up. Hold up. You started as a volunteer,
SPEAKER_1 [00:31:26]
and then you volunteered to the point where I think everyone around you felt guilty that we weren't paying you.
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:32]
This is interesting because I volunteered originally, I was gonna post the quarterly magazine content on. So, basically, work a day, four times a year.
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:43]
Then somebody who was handling the web articles
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:46]
dropped the ball, really. And that's when you turned to me,
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:50]
and I started doing that.
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:52]
And then
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:54]
our good friend pastor Borghart got
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:56]
me into podcasting
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:58]
because he tried to edit the first episode of his podcast
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:01]
and realized that it took more time than he had.
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:04]
So he said, hey. You wanna splice this together for me? Like, I have no idea what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:11]
You'll figure it out. So thanks, pastor Borchardt. You're a big reason why we have Life with Twisted Lemon today.
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:19]
Now now if only he listened and could hear that.
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:22]
And I think that's when they decided, yeah, I should probably
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:25]
make some money.
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:27]
But I loved every minute of it. So
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:30]
You were dependable. Right? So volunteers using volunteers for anything is tough to say the least,
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:37]
because they've got other commitments. They got other things going on. You you know, counting on them is just hard.
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:42]
And I think that's
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:43]
that's kinda where you really stepped up to the plate,
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:46]
and you made it very compelling
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:48]
to,
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:49]
you know, with our
SPEAKER_1 [00:32:52]
our shoestring budget to find you some some money to pay you part time.
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:56]
Yeah. So kind of
SPEAKER_0 [00:32:58]
overlapping with that, I went off to college and studied philosophy of all things. I also thought that I would end up in seminary one day. That was short lived.
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:08]
I actually took a year off of work off of school completely and went back into
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:13]
the IT world focusing on networking and security.
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:17]
And, really, I kinda
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:21]
fell in love with the web development stuff while I was doing that. You taught me some PHP initially,
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:26]
which has paid off in dividends now that I'm working with WordPress.
SPEAKER_1 [00:33:32]
So from there, you got your first full time job. Right? Yep.
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:36]
So that was kind of a combination job of all the things.
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:41]
So it was for,
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:43]
the district office of our church body here in Iowa East.
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:47]
I was doing some
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:50]
editing stuff. I was putting together print publications.
SPEAKER_0 [00:33:53]
I was handling the website, and then I was also handling the office network, and they were running their own Microsoft server and exchange server.
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:01]
So
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:02]
it all kind of collided there. And the thing that I always wanted to do more of was
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:07]
the web work,
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:09]
and that's what I really fell in love with.
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:13]
So when I decided that this
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:17]
position with the district didn't really have any place to grow,
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:21]
and I didn't have
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:22]
much mentorship there really. So what it's not a great place to be in for your first full time job.
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:29]
I started looking around and
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:31]
fell into help desk stuff or
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:35]
go all in on what I can do with my limited web knowledge.
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:39]
So now I work as the web development operations manager for a marketing technology agency.
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:45]
So I do a lot of WordPress stuff and a lot of
SPEAKER_0 [00:34:48]
kinda CRM configuration stuff.
SPEAKER_1 [00:34:51]
And and you're in a world now where you are dealing with lots of different clients, lots of different projects, billable hours.
SPEAKER_1 [00:34:59]
It it honestly,
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:01]
from what I can gather, not too different from
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:04]
the contract world that I started
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:06]
in sans maybe your is yours is a little more stable.
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:11]
Right. And you you've got health insurance. Right, John? Yes. Yes. I do. There
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:15]
you go. So
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:18]
I think what's nice about that type of gig, and and sometimes I miss this, right, is the variety that you get. Right. I'm never bored. Different projects. Exactly. I
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:26]
think that also though, like billable hours probably makes it hard to turn it off at the end of the day, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:33]
Partially, I find that the
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:35]
so we have really two
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:38]
main developers,
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:40]
working. So it's really a workload thing,
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:44]
that I'm trying to balance now. And since,
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:47]
basically, everybody gets charged the same hourly rate,
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:51]
there's no built in hierarchy there. So
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:55]
everything has the same priority,
SPEAKER_0 [00:35:57]
more or less.
SPEAKER_1 [00:35:59]
And if everything has the same priority Then nothing's a priority. Has priority. Yeah.
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:05]
That's that's the challenge. That's I think that's that's a challenge with anything. Right? Like, you you have to in in career and in life, you've gotta make hard decisions
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:14]
about the order of things. And the minute that you decide that or you recognize maybe that you can't do two things at once, multitasking is a farce. Right? It's not real.
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:23]
Then then you're doing prioritization.
SPEAKER_0 [00:36:25]
Right.
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:27]
And usually,
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:28]
is has a better outcome when you do it upfront rather than
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:32]
in the moment,
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:34]
you know, by the seat of your pants. Right.
SPEAKER_0 [00:36:36]
Being reactionary,
SPEAKER_0 [00:36:38]
which you do on a daily level, but not on
SPEAKER_0 [00:36:41]
the grand scheme of things.
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:44]
Yeah. Like so it's it's it's interesting. Right? Reactionary
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:47]
so I I said that, like, my job is very reactive
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:50]
in the sense that
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:52]
I'm I'm helping people
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:54]
do their work. Like, that's kind of my role now.
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:57]
And
SPEAKER_1 [00:36:58]
people get stuck at different points. Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:01]
So my reactiveness is usually from a problem solving standpoint. And that, I think, is different
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:07]
from
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:09]
here are two fires.
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:10]
Which do I put out first? Right. I don't like that kind of reactiveness. Like, that I don't thrive in that environment.
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:16]
That that environment,
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:18]
is to me often unhealthy.
SPEAKER_0 [00:37:22]
So you're basically, like,
SPEAKER_0 [00:37:24]
an internal
SPEAKER_0 [00:37:26]
support technician.
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:28]
There you go. I I mean,
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:31]
was it?
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:32]
My wife said that I'm a life coach for software engineers.
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:37]
I I took offense to that,
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:39]
but then I told my boss, he's like, that's perfect. It describes you perfectly.
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:43]
So I I don't know. I mean, I I do get into the code. I get I get to to be, like, you know,
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:48]
use that creative muscle
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:51]
less so than I used to. But but yeah. Like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:55]
I don't know, man. I'm I'm a support engineer for
SPEAKER_1 [00:37:59]
engineering teams, I guess. I'll take that. There you go.
SPEAKER_0 [00:38:03]
So some of the best
SPEAKER_0 [00:38:05]
advice in general, career advice too that I've ever received came from you,
SPEAKER_0 [00:38:12]
and you basically
SPEAKER_0 [00:38:14]
made me realize,
SPEAKER_0 [00:38:16]
you said this, you aren't as important as you think you are.
SPEAKER_1 [00:38:22]
Wait. What was the context in which I told you that? Do you remember? I think it was when I was having this internal conflict about walking away
SPEAKER_0 [00:38:30]
from one of my positions and not knowing what the organization was gonna do without me.
SPEAKER_1 [00:38:36]
And so you've you've left two positions in your time. Yep. Are they both still around, the organizations? They're both still around.
SPEAKER_1 [00:38:44]
And they're still functioning? Yep.
SPEAKER_1 [00:38:47]
Maybe not as smoothly because they don't have John Colmire, but they're still there. I And think that was my point. Right? Like, sometimes,
SPEAKER_1 [00:38:54]
I've definitely felt this. Right? So when I that first full time position I had when I left,
SPEAKER_1 [00:38:59]
I wondered how they would ever survive without me. Right? Like, I had this really high view of myself, thought that I was really important.
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:07]
And
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:08]
truth be told, they're fine. They're doing alright. You know? They're still making money.
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:13]
Maybe they're doing it a little differently because they got different, you know, kinda characters in the system, if you will.
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:19]
But, you know, I think that's that's freeing. That is what allows you to make change,
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:26]
and that includes,
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:27]
you know, like, a change at the end of your day as well as, like, a changing career.
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:31]
It just it it kinda is an enabler,
SPEAKER_1 [00:39:34]
and
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:35]
I think it can be freeing. So I I found this to be true
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:40]
in interviews or working with contractors or something like that too,
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:45]
where the boss in that situation
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:48]
also
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:49]
isn't as important as they think they are because
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:52]
the contractor or the interviewee
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:54]
can say
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:56]
no and leave.
SPEAKER_0 [00:39:58]
So there there's definitely a two way relationship there. Both people get something out of those relationships.
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:05]
Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:06]
You know,
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:09]
we've we haven't talked about it on the podcast, but we've talked a little bit, you, me,
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:14]
about
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:15]
the the importance of a job
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:18]
to you
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:20]
and whether or not it, like, defines you. So am I a software engineer Or, you know, am I a husband, a dad, a Steelers fan of Star Wars Affectionado?
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:29]
Whatever it says on my website. And
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:32]
I think this is important and somewhat related too. Right? Like, when you find yourself in a position
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:36]
where you're convinced that you are
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:39]
somehow holding it all together. Right? And so that that somehow you leaving, it's gonna fall apart.
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:46]
You you wind up then also, like, defining yourself by that job, and that's just a really, really dangerous risky place to go down. Now, some people do that. Right? Like, they're those are the entrepreneurs. Those are the people that are starting businesses,
SPEAKER_1 [00:40:58]
maybe a CEO.
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:00]
And the world has a place for those people where they put it all in. But that's
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:06]
you know, those people are exceptions to the rule. They're not the norm. Right? You and I are the norm. We've got normal regular old jobs.
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:14]
And part of what makes the, you know, entrepreneurs
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:18]
successful
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:19]
is finding people who,
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:22]
don't get totally consumed because they're if they got a clear head, they can function at a high level because they can also step away, you know, and clear their mind and reset.
SPEAKER_0 [00:41:31]
Right. And and that's
SPEAKER_0 [00:41:34]
freeing not only if you wanna sever ties, but it's also
SPEAKER_0 [00:41:39]
freeing you to take risks and be creative and do things within your position too.
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:45]
Yep. Here's I'll just, I'll add this final tidbit. Right? Everybody wants to work for a good boss. Right? Everybody wants to work for a good business, a sound business,
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:55]
a business that isn't going to disappear overnight.
SPEAKER_1 [00:41:58]
And,
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:00]
you know, the the kind of people that somebody hires
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:04]
speaks a lot to
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:06]
the the quality of their business. Right? And if
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:09]
someone has a business
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:11]
that will fall apart the minute that you step away, it's probably not a really great place to work. Right.
SPEAKER_0 [00:42:19]
So That's a depressing note. We can't end on that.
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:23]
Well, I mean, I don't work at a place like that, do you? No. But still,
SPEAKER_0 [00:42:27]
some one of our listeners might.
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:29]
So go out and find a new job. You've got the freedom to do that while you're while you're tied down. I don't know. I mean, like And get a milkshake on the way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:39]
Exactly. There you go.
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:42]
I think the whole the whole point of this conversation, right, came off that tweet, which is basically
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:46]
my advice and, you know, this
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:49]
I I I can't stress this enough. When you work, work. And when you're done, be done. And don't let your job consume you. I think if you do that, that's a recipe for
SPEAKER_1 [00:42:58]
a healthy life, a healthy life work balance. Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:02]
And, you know, those things will bear fruit elsewhere.
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:05]
So there we go, John. Nice. My life coach moment. Alright. Thank you, life coach Stan,
SPEAKER_0 [00:43:10]
and
SPEAKER_0 [00:43:11]
we'll see you next week. Actually, we'll see you this week. Hopefully, we'll record when we're in person.
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:18]
We are definitely gonna record when we're in person. And I think
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:21]
we
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:22]
I don't wanna I don't wanna spoil it, but we'll have a special surprise
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:25]
in the next episode assuming that I make it to Iowa
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:29]
safe and sound.
SPEAKER_0 [00:43:31]
Alright. See you soon, Stan.
SPEAKER_1 [00:43:33]
Later, John.