SPEAKER_0 [00:00:00]
Dramas, please.
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:13]
Yeah.
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:20]
This is life
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:22]
with a twist of lemon.
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:24]
So, John, I'm coming to you live from Catalina.
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:27]
Oh, yeah? You updated and you didn't tell me? No. No. No. I did not update.
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:32]
I wanna be very, very clear.
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:34]
K. I did not update. At any moment, I can switch back to Mojave
SPEAKER_1 [00:00:38]
exactly as I left it. Got it. Dual booting or different computer?
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:43]
No. No. No. Not different computer. It's not been that kind of day.
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:47]
It's a separate partition, separate volume, technically, in OS 10 terms or Mac OS terms. Sure. So
SPEAKER_0 [00:00:54]
friend of the show, former listener. I don't believe he listens anymore. Aaron Fang Prove me wrong, please. Yes. Aaron Fang was asking me how long to wait because my rule was wait till the dot one release.
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:06]
This dot one release does not quite look like what I thought a dot one release for Mac OS would look like. Definitely doesn't look like prior
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:14]
dot one releases. Mhmm. So
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:16]
I'm trying it out. Fresh install. Can't really speak to the upgrade path, but yeah.
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:23]
No crashes yet?
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:25]
No. I did have a badge get stuck on the TV app,
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:29]
and I found a workaround on the Apple discussion forums that basically you have to remove it from your dock,
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:36]
and then open it up again and it'll go away. And sure enough, that did it, and that kinda bothers me to be completely honest with So
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:44]
I don't know. Not not necessarily a bad omen, but not a good omen.
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:49]
We'll see. Alright. We'll see how it all shakes out. I'll hold out until
SPEAKER_1 [00:01:52]
maybe I'll do it the week of Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER_0 [00:01:55]
I right now, I will say this, I will not switch full time to Catalina
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:01]
until the next release. So 10 dot 15 dot two. Tentatively.
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:06]
Yeah. Dot two could be just as bad as that one. It could be. I don't know, man. This this whole macOS
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:12]
release cycle
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:14]
has just been rough. It has been really, really rough.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:18]
Remember when you were running the beta?
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:22]
Yeah. That was awful. Like, I I can't go back to that.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:26]
You'll skip the next beta cycle.
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:29]
Oh, hands down. I I will tell you this.
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:32]
One thing I will definitely not do is make it my primary OS. I will always install it as a separate partition
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:39]
and spin it off. Now, stinks about that is
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:42]
things like Backblaze and Time Machine
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:45]
don't quite play nice in that world. It wants to think of this as two different computers.
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:50]
Anyhow, let's shift gears because nobody wants to hear about all the nitty gritty of Mac OS.
SPEAKER_1 [00:02:55]
Especially my sister, Elizabeth Doc. And my father-in-law.
SPEAKER_0 [00:02:58]
I believe you referred to that portion of the show as garbage when I saw him last. Garbage? So
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:04]
we'll we'll see if he'll
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:07]
listen to this. He'll be like, I said what?
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:11]
Anyhow,
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:12]
so
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:13]
it's it's been a Catalina kind of day.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:16]
I,
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:17]
I don't know. It's alright.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:20]
We'll just leave it at that.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:22]
Alright. Let me ask you a practical question that I'm struggling with here.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:27]
My, my boots that I wear in the snow,
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:30]
the ins Which we talked about four episodes ago. Me telling you how the insides were wearing a little bit? Yeah. They're Yeah. The they're completely crumbling.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:40]
Like, not just wearing through, like, the,
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:43]
I don't know, the foam or whatever. It has dried out and is breaking into chunks.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:47]
So
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:48]
I'm going to retire them.
SPEAKER_0 [00:03:50]
I don't need work boots, which is what these are, but I do need snow boots of some sort. And I'm just curious, do you have do you have any preference around snow boots?
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:00]
I have not had snow boots for
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:03]
probably ten years.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:04]
This amazes me. So you go outside and your feet are always wet.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:08]
Sure.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:10]
Alright. I'm gonna make a, I'm gonna make a real time adjustment to the show lineup tonight, and this is gonna be Lemon's life tip for today.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:19]
Alright. You should not have to suffer with wet feet
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:23]
in the snow.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:25]
Get yourself a pair of boots or at the very least,
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:29]
some really, really great Ziploc bags.
SPEAKER_1 [00:04:34]
Ziploc bags, I do have. I've never worn them in snow.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:38]
In a moment of desperation, I have done that, and I will not judge a soul who does.
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:42]
But I do think, John,
SPEAKER_0 [00:04:44]
you deserve a pair of snow boots. I'm curious. Maybe we could make a thing of this, buddy. Because I'm looking at snow boots right now. Maybe you could buy the same pair of snow boots, and we could then both review them. This is a low commitment for you. This is $33.88.
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:00]
Oh, that's my kinda shoe price. Yeah. Yeah. So this is,
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:05]
definitely not the best rated boot on Amazon,
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:08]
but it was the eco buy on one of their footwear blocks.
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:13]
Still got four stars. Yeah. I mean, it's something. Right? And it's 351
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:17]
ratings. That's probably okay.
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:19]
It's Waterproof, synthetic.
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:22]
It claims to be waterproof. It's rubber. You know what I like about it? There's There's no tie at the top. You bet, man. No shoelaces,
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:30]
zip tie at the top.
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:33]
My, my criteria was needed to go above, like, completely over and above my ankle,
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:38]
and I think this is gonna be it. So I'm gonna probably pull the trigger on these so that I have them when I need them, because the worst thing
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:45]
to, to happen is you not to have proper footwear
SPEAKER_0 [00:05:49]
when it snows. So again, life tip with Lemon, get yourself some snow boots. You deserve it.
SPEAKER_1 [00:05:55]
So when do you actually have to walk through snow, Stan?
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:02]
Well, I mean, like, when I'm,
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:04]
snow blowing. Right? There's there's snow all over the place. Like But you start in your garage that's connected to your house.
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:11]
Why don't you just make a pass so you don't have to walk through the snow? It it's still a lot of wetness, John. Like, I don't I don't know about you, man, but wet socks are the enemy. Maybe this is the boy scout in me, but I avoid wet socks as if they were the plague. And you don't wanna, like, change your socks when you're done snowblowing?
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:29]
I don't I don't wanna be put in that situation. Like, I don't it's not that I don't have socks. It's not that I don't
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:37]
wanna get my feet wet. Like, my feet wet can be in the shower every day of the week. Sure. But I like, you get your feet wet, and you were going to be cold, and you're going to be cold for a long time. And again, nobody should have to live that way.
SPEAKER_1 [00:06:52]
Alright, Stan.
SPEAKER_0 [00:06:53]
Wet wet feet are the enemy. And Wet feet are the enemy. Yeah. They are, man. Think about it. If you if you sit in a pair of shoes with wet feet too long, all kinds of nastiness starts growing. Like, you don't need that kind of funk in your life. Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:13]
So You've thought about this far more than I have, Stan. Yeah. I do I get far more snow than you do. Have you have you ever seen my winter sock collection?
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:22]
I have not. I have a special set of socks that I pull out for the winter.
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:27]
To, like, keep my feet warm because I'm serious.
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:30]
If your feet aren't warm,
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:32]
no part of you is warm. That's just how it works.
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:36]
I must like being cold more than you do, Stan. Maybe, John, but I'm telling you, that's just no way to live.
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:42]
I do not like being warm,
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:44]
and I get warm very easily.
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:47]
So I prefer the cold.
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:50]
Alright. Well,
SPEAKER_1 [00:07:52]
you should buy you should buy these. We could we could play under $50.
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:55]
Yeah, man. This is this is a John Colmire budget approved
SPEAKER_0 [00:07:59]
buy.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:00]
Alright.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:02]
Mastery
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:03]
minimalism.
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:04]
I thought hard about this one. Minimalism.
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:06]
Yeah. Have you noticed that we don't have a theme song for mastering minimalism? I'm confident. Minimalistic of me, isn't it? Yeah. I guess it is. Although, I'm I'm confident you can fix this.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:17]
So when you got married, what was the dumbest gift you got? Do you remember?
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:26]
Nothing stands out
SPEAKER_1 [00:08:28]
as a dumb gift.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:30]
There was nothing that you looked at as like, this is so
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:33]
useless.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:34]
I have I I, like, I can't even stand to keep it. You didn't have anything like that?
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:42]
Not that I remember. Clearly, failed you as a friend. I should've gotten you something that was worthless. So
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:47]
I when we got married, the Panini press,
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:51]
the beloved Panini press, was the new hotness.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:54]
And we got
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:55]
three, John. We got three Panini presses. Yes.
SPEAKER_0 [00:08:59]
Do you know how many Panini presses I have kept?
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:02]
One.
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:03]
Zero. Zero. Yes. I have didn't bring you joy. It didn't bring me joy. I looked at it. Was like, where am I gonna put this? So we returned all three Panini presses.
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:13]
K. If by some freak chance, you were listening to this podcast and you gave me a Panini press at my wedding, I am sorry. I'm about to break your heart.
SPEAKER_1 [00:09:23]
Do you remember who they came from? No. Any chance you're listening? This
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:27]
this seems pretty slim.
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:29]
But so here's the thing. Right? Like, a panini press, it's a great idea. You know, you put us a beautiful looking sandwich in there. You press it together. You get those nice little ridges. It's, like, sorta toasted,
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:40]
but not really.
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:42]
Right?
SPEAKER_0 [00:09:43]
And and I I like that. Like, you know, Panera made an entire business around the panini press, quite frankly. Sure. Panini press and bland soup, like, that's a multimillion dollar business right there. But the fact of the matter is, it takes up a lot of space, and you gotta store it. They're very unpleasant to clean,
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:00]
and it all comes down to this really, really simple rule for the kitchen.
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:06]
Do not buy
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:08]
single use kitchen gadgets.
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:10]
Alton Brown would call those monotaskers,
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:13]
but the panini press would not fall into that category for him. Why would the why would the panini press not be a monotasker? So he has, like,
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:21]
in his cookbook,
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:23]
which is basically
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:24]
stuff he makes around his house, he has, like, this full breakfast
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:28]
recipe that goes on the panini press.
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:31]
Like, makes bacon on it and
SPEAKER_1 [00:10:34]
stuff like that.
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:35]
I
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:37]
there's nothing that can be made on the panini press that can't be made elsewhere.
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:43]
Like and, like, if you really want
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:45]
the panini press effect,
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:47]
quite frankly, I think you are better off getting a cast iron.
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:52]
Well, I don't even know what they call it. Like, it's Buffer? No.
SPEAKER_0 [00:10:55]
No. No. It's it's basically a cast iron panini brush. It doesn't plug into the wall. You put something in a frying pan, and you can set this thing on top of it. Have to get it hot and all that. Sure.
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:05]
I I just I I don't believe in single use kitchen gadgets. I'll give you an example of another one that I did succumb to, and we got rid of. Do you remember those
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:15]
frozen banana ice cream maker things?
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:20]
No.
SPEAKER_1 [00:11:21]
I do not. Okay.
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:23]
So there was a machine, and I can't even for the life of me remember what it was called now,
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:27]
that would take a frozen banana
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:29]
as an input
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:31]
and output it as a, like,
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:34]
almost ice creamy like texture.
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:38]
I think it's Yo Yo Bananas. Maybe that was what it was called.
SPEAKER_0 [00:11:43]
Must have fallen out of fad. Oh, it it definitely did. Attention to kitchen gadgets. But it it's, like, a complete waste, served one purpose. It did that thing well, but, like Sure. Did I really need that in my life? The answer is no. I would put a rice cooker in the exact same category. And a lot of people would fight me on this because they love their rice cooker. But,
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:03]
again, like, do you have a huge kitchen with a ton of storage for the thing that you may use if you're lucky once a week? If you're eating rice more than once a week, by the way, you wanna get your glucose checked. But
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:16]
suffice to say, like, I I just don't I don't believe in those things. I I really don't. We have a simple set of pots and pans.
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:23]
We have so
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:26]
to wrap this all up, I'm just saying that if you wanna be minimalistic,
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:31]
look at the kitchen tools that you use
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:33]
every week or every time you cook.
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:36]
Right? And optimize around those.
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:38]
We have a tendency, I think, to buy kitchen gadgets that do one thing and only one thing, and nine times out of 10, they're, like, painful to clean. Right? And rather than just, like, you know, buckle down and use a knife to cut something, we've got 16 different choppers.
SPEAKER_0 [00:12:56]
You know? And and it's just not worth it. So if you wanna be a minimalist,
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:01]
get rid of the single use kitchen gadgets. Resist the urge to buy them. Avoid them like the plague. Get yourself a really nice set of stainless steel pots and pans,
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:12]
a really,
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:13]
really nice,
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:15]
like, dicing knife,
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:17]
and
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:18]
a wood spoon,
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:19]
and you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:22]
That's that's pretty good there, Stan. My
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:25]
favorite
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:26]
kitchen
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:27]
utensil
SPEAKER_1 [00:13:28]
is definitely my chef's knife.
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:32]
I you know, I don't think people invest enough in their chef's knife. Like, I I really I really think people
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:39]
don't know what it's like to have a sharp Sure. Knife in their kitchen,
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:43]
let alone one that they care for. And, you know, it's that's that's one of those things that's worth dropping
SPEAKER_0 [00:13:50]
some dollars on, and you should also get something to sharpen it. And if you don't know how to use the sharpening rod, get something that makes it foolproof.
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:00]
You've seen my knife sharpener. Right, John? I have. I've not purchased one yet. I do use my honing steel every time I use my knife, though. Let me ask you. Do do you feel comfortable enough with
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:11]
the honing steel to get it like truly sharp?
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:17]
So I don't know that it ever makes it truly sharp. It basically just brings the knife back into alignment.
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:24]
So,
SPEAKER_1 [00:14:25]
yeah, I feel pretty comfortable with the honing steel. So I have a Kitchen IQ
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:30]
Edge Grip two stage knife sharpener,
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:33]
and this thing cost me, like, nothing. I think it was $6.
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:38]
K?
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:39]
And it's it gets my knife sharp every time. It's foolproof.
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:44]
Like, you can't go wrong. Now
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:47]
one might think, is this a single use kitchen gadget?
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:51]
It does one thing. It does it exceptionally well, but I use it
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:55]
every time I use that knife after it's been washed.
SPEAKER_0 [00:14:59]
So it's constantly sharp. So, you know, you you pick your battles. This is one that has enough applicability
SPEAKER_0 [00:15:05]
that, I embrace it.
SPEAKER_0 [00:15:08]
So Nice. Return the panini press. That's that's the tip of the or master minimalism I don't.
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:14]
I do not have a panini press. I do have a George Foreman grill, which I am now considering get rid of because I have a real grill,
SPEAKER_0 [00:15:23]
but I haven't gotten the wife on board yet. Do you actually like the way things taste on the George Foreman grill?
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:29]
I do not, but it was better than nothing in the apartment that was grill less. I I don't know why you wouldn't just use cast iron
SPEAKER_0 [00:15:37]
to cook meat in that situation.
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:40]
When I was living alone and not wanting to do dishes?
SPEAKER_0 [00:15:44]
It I did I'm sorry. The George Foreman grill is not exactly fun to clean, is it?
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:49]
No. But you can wipe down.
SPEAKER_1 [00:15:52]
You you don't have to, like, actually soap and water it every time.
SPEAKER_0 [00:15:56]
Wait. You shouldn't be soap and watering your, cast iron either, John.
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:00]
Sure. So I rest my case. I think the George Foreman grill is
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:06]
a lackluster kitchen product that produces
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:09]
a subpar
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:11]
piece of cooked meat, and you should consider cast iron or a grill, and that's that.
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:17]
Fair enough. Alright. Moving on, John.
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:20]
We teased this last episode.
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:22]
This has been on the list for a while. Are you ready to talk about macaroni and cheese?
SPEAKER_1 [00:16:27]
I can, Stan. I'll talk about whatever you want to. Does this does this topic not spark a little bit of interest in your heart? It definitely sparks interest. I think that we're gonna get hate mail because you're gonna take over it, and I don't have a strong opinion. Well, you should form a strong opinion. So here's the bottom line.
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:44]
Alright? Now the question was posed to me.
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:46]
When you're doing add ins in mac and cheese, when does it transform into being a casserole?
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:51]
I think the larger question
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:54]
is what is the difference
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:56]
between
SPEAKER_0 [00:16:57]
mac and cheese and a casserole? Which also begs the question, John, how do you even define a casserole? Casserole? Yeah. Yeah. And if you wanna get really messy, what's the difference between a casserole and a pasta bake? What's the difference between a pasta bake and lasagna? Like, there are so many levels to this conversation, and we're gonna get into it. So lasagna
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:16]
uses
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:17]
special noodles,
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:19]
and that's like how the pasta world works. Like, rigatoni is rigatoni because that's the type of pasta he eats.
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:26]
Lasagna.
SPEAKER_1 [00:17:27]
It's a lasagna because he used lasagna noodles.
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:30]
So I would I would propose to you that lasagna is not defined by the lasagna noodle.
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:40]
You think so? No. I don't. I think the lasagna noodle
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:43]
is a attribute. It's an aspect of lasagna, but what makes lasagna lasagna
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:49]
is
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:49]
order.
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:51]
Right? And this is how I distinguish
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:53]
a lasagna
SPEAKER_0 [00:17:55]
from a pasta bake is chaos. Right? Because when you think about it, they have cheeses,
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:01]
they have noodles,
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:03]
they have usually something tomatoey based Sure. And they usually have meat. Right?
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:07]
But what separates a lasagna is that those things are ordered in a beautiful fashion,
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:14]
layer by layer, in a graceful, just artistic measure
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:18]
of of culinary art. Right? K. Meanwhile, pasta bake is like Throw everything together. Crap together and cook it. Yeah. They're cooked the same, John. They often have the exact same dish involved.
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:30]
Right? The the pseudo casserole dish. But I ask you, my friend, would you say that lasagna is a casserole?
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:40]
I haven't thought about it before, but maybe.
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:44]
Maybe. Are you kidding me? Explain
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:47]
yourself, John. Why would lasagna be a casserole? Because it's made in a casserole dish? Really? There's noodles,
SPEAKER_1 [00:18:53]
cheese, and it's made in a casserole dish and baked in the oven.
SPEAKER_0 [00:18:58]
Okay. So so there there's so much to unpack here. And I think this this comes down to prepared for this, Dana. I want to talk about mac and cheese.
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:06]
Get it from this Blue Box store.
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:09]
Is
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:11]
macaroni and cheese a casserole?
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:13]
And you just hinted on something. When you go to the grocery store and you get that mac and cheese well, first of all, do you actually get mac and cheese or you get mac and Velveeta?
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:21]
Mac and cheese. Like, the craft glue box. Yeah.
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:26]
I'm pretty sure that's not actually cheese, buddy.
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:29]
Have you ever tried Annie's?
SPEAKER_1 [00:19:32]
I don't think so. The best mac and cheese that I ever had was made by missus Lemon.
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:37]
Well, that's yeah. We we do it right in the Lemon House. But I will say this, if you are at home and you are thinking to yourself, I need macaroni and cheese right now,
SPEAKER_0 [00:19:47]
do not, I repeat, do not get the Velveeta or the Kraft box macaroni and cheese. Do yourself a solid. Get some of the Annie's. The Annie's stuff is legit.
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Like, if you want just average Joe macaroni and cheese out of a box in a pot,
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:03]
Annie's it is. Is it like 37¢
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per box?
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:08]
No. No, John. You might have to spend a buck. Oh my word.
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:12]
I don't do the grocery shopping.
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:14]
Hey.
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Promise me something, John.
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:18]
In, in your last will and testament, let me sit in on the autopsy. That's all I wanna know.
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:23]
Fair enough. I didn't say I eat it a lot, but I'm saying when I get mac and cheese, that's what I think. So
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:29]
so mac and cheese when cooked in a pot. Right? I think typically we would say that is not a casserole. Correct. Not baked.
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:36]
Not baked. But You're baked macaroni and cheese is an art. Yes. It is a glorious thing.
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And that, my friend, I ask you, is that a casserole?
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Is it only noodles
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and different forms of cheese?
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:51]
Let's start there, and we'll we'll evolve.
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:54]
I guess not.
SPEAKER_0 [00:20:56]
You don't think it's a casserole, but it's baked in it's a casserole dish, John.
SPEAKER_1 [00:20:59]
True. And it involves noodles and cheese.
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See?
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Which I think you raise an interesting point. Does every casserole have to have cheese?
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I
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guess probably not. Hey. Yeah. I would say not either. I think you may use egg or you could use
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some
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red sauce material,
SPEAKER_0 [00:21:19]
you know, tomatoey stuff Sure. And probably also make a casserole.
SPEAKER_0 [00:21:23]
I don't think though that baked macaroni and cheese is a casserole.
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Now, the question becomes, have you ever had
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cut me well, I think macaroni and cheese stands on its own, and there's a spectrum. Like, if I were to make a Venn diagram,
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right,
SPEAKER_1 [00:21:39]
I've got We need to do a video stand.
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Macaroni and cheese on the left, and I've got a casserole on the right. And in the middle, there's this little area that it overlaps,
SPEAKER_0 [00:21:49]
and that's baked macaroni and cheese. But you would not call it a macaroni and cheese casserole, would you? Probably not. No. That would be silly. That would be absolutely
SPEAKER_0 [00:21:58]
Preposterous. Nobody does that.
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:01]
We're gonna get so much hate mail. So, John, now think about what happens when you start adding things to that macaroni and cheese.
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Bacon.
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:09]
Bacon. Okay. If you add bacon to macaroni and cheese, does it suddenly become a casserole?
SPEAKER_1 [00:22:15]
I say probably not. Then it's mac and cheese with bacon. Exactly. A bacon cheeseburger.
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:20]
What if you add jalapeno?
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:22]
I don't know, man. What do you think? I think I think you add a jalapeno and you add bacon. It's probably still macaroni and cheese. But like you said, the bacon cheeseburger doesn't suddenly become, you know, something other than a cheeseburger
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:35]
just because you added bacon on it. Sure.
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Now,
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what if you take this one step further, John, and you put in pulled chicken?
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Still mac and cheese?
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:46]
Well,
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I think you're missing an important question.
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How much
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pulled chicken? How much pulled chicken? Now This is very different than the grilled cheese conversation one.
SPEAKER_0 [00:22:59]
It is. I think there's more fluidity here. So so think about this. Right?
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You it would be very hard, I think, to add enough bacon to overpower
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both the macaroni and the cheese. Now granted, I will, on the record, state very clearly that if you do this, I'd like to try it.
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However, I think I think it would require a lot, and I think that that would fundamentally
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transform
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the macaroni and cheese into something else. It would be like crumbled bacon with cheese and noodles.
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You see where I'm going? Likewise,
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a jalapeno. If you somehow overpower
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both the macaroni and the cheese with jalapeno, Again, please invite me over. I'd like to try that. But I think at that point, it becomes something else. Right?
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:45]
So, like, a
SPEAKER_1 [00:23:47]
mac and cheese stuffed jalapeno
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is no longer mac and cheese. No. It is not. That is a jalapeno that has been stuffed with glorious goodness.
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Fair enough.
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So so I think then if we come back to the pulled chicken,
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we would find, John,
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that there's a tipping point in which you add enough pulled chicken that suddenly it overpowers both the macaroni and the cheese. If you can get to the chicken without the cheese,
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it is no longer macaroni and cheese. It's chicken. Chicken with cheese and noodles.
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Baked in a casserole dish. Baked in a casserole dish. And that, John, I think segues into how do you properly distinguish
SPEAKER_0 [00:24:29]
mac and cheese from a casserole? And this is what I think is the criteria. What's the star of the show? What is the star of the show? Right? And if if if it is macaroni and cheese, then it's macaroni and cheese. It's as simple as that. Right? But the minute
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that your add ins
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cross the threshold and overpower the macaroni and cheese, And I wanna be clear about something. It's not just one add in overpowering it. Right?
SPEAKER_0 [00:24:55]
If you decide that you are going to Pour tomato sauce on it. Oh, that's I mean, once you start mixing cheese and tomatoes, it's no longer macaroni and cheese. It's a cheesy tomato sauce. Right? Now we're now we're in pasta bake territory.
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So
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I I think I just think there's something to be said for when the macaroni and cheese
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have to play second fiddle
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that it becomes a pasta bake.
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Alright. You really think that's gonna be controversial?
SPEAKER_1 [00:25:25]
I think that your logic is sound.
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This is not the type of cuisine that I eat on a regular basis, so I don't have strong opinions on this. But, yes, I think somebody will send you hate mail for this. I imagine it's gonna be like Andrew Sears in or Daniel Sanchez because I saw you guys fighting about food
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:45]
at my birthday party. I I would embrace I would embrace that fight. Bring it. Tell me why I'm wrong. I wanna know. Twistoflemonpod
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:53]
dot com.
SPEAKER_0 [00:25:55]
Hit the contact page. Let us know. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:00]
Alright. I feel like I've done justice to how many add ins transform mac and cheese. If you think I haven't, again, please write to us. We wanna know more. So why do you have, for example, Panera here in parentheses? Does Panera have, like, a casserole mac and cheese?
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:15]
Well, they've got a baked macaroni and cheese,
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and at various times, they've done these these things where you can throw mix ins into
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the macaroni and cheese. And I've actually seen that at other restaurants too Sure. Where and I've seen it done two ways.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:30]
One, where they legitimately bake it with the mix ins, and then I've I've seen where they also just serve it with the mix ins on top, and then you're responsible for blending it, which is a travesty. That's pure laziness in a dish, and nobody should do that. Shame on the restaurants that do that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_0 [00:26:46]
I think I think there,
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you just have sloppiness. And I'm not necessarily willing to say it's a casserole,
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but and and I think I think part of the reason I'm not willing to say it's a casserole is, again, that transformation of the mac and cheese usually happens post cooking. True. Right?
SPEAKER_0 [00:27:03]
And I think for it to be a casserole,
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all of the ingredients must be baked together
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at the same time.
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This is also why I think
SPEAKER_0 [00:27:12]
mac and cheese kinda stands alone, because a baked mac and cheese,
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you can make and serve without baking it, and it's still not only edible, but delicious.
SPEAKER_0 [00:27:22]
Right? Sure.
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You can you can then take that perfectly fine macaroni and cheese, put it into a casserole dish,
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and bake it. Right? Which is a which is a further transformation
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of what's going on in the dish, but it doesn't define the dish. Because you put it in a casserole dish doesn't make it a casserole.
SPEAKER_0 [00:27:40]
Right? Because it was edible. It was something before you put it into the casserole dish.
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:45]
You have very strong feelings about this. I view mac and cheese as a
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wonderful
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delivery vehicle for hot sauces.
SPEAKER_0 [00:27:55]
Oh, yeah. Yeah. What's your what's your favorite hot sauce on mac and cheese, John?
SPEAKER_1 [00:27:59]
So
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I like a jalapeno hot sauce,
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Habanero,
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sometimes depending on the hot sauce,
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:07]
could burn your face off on mac and cheese. Much more suited for taco.
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:13]
So yeah. There's also, like, Chipotle hot sauce is pretty darn good on mac and cheese.
SPEAKER_0 [00:28:18]
So I will, right here, endorse as the best sauce,
SPEAKER_0 [00:28:23]
the best hot sauce to apply to your macaroni and cheese, Marie Sharp's Habanero Pepper Sauce. It is not nearly as hot as you think. Can't. It is a glorious,
SPEAKER_0 [00:28:33]
absolutely delicious hot sauce. It goes good on eggs, goes good on pizza, goes good on macaroni and cheese. Basically, you combine this thing with a cheese of any sort, and you, my friend, will win win
SPEAKER_0 [00:28:46]
win.
SPEAKER_1 [00:28:48]
I'm missing a reference there, but I'm sure some listener gets it.
SPEAKER_0 [00:28:54]
Real quick, just to just to like wrap up this macaroni and cheese bit. So what we do here
SPEAKER_0 [00:28:59]
is actually pretty simple. Missus Lemon gets a block
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of American
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cheese
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from Boar's Head.
SPEAKER_0 [00:29:07]
Real American cheese, not cheese product. Bingo. You got it. If your macaroni and cheese has cheese product in it, guess what? It's macaroni and cheese product. It's not macaroni and cheese.
SPEAKER_0 [00:29:19]
Fight me. Fight me. No. No. Alright. So we take that boar's head though. We grate it up. We make basically a roux, a sauce. Right? And then we boil some macaroni, and that is the base
SPEAKER_0 [00:29:30]
for macaroni and cheese. And again, you come to the lemon house, you can eat it exactly like that. It is delicious.
SPEAKER_0 [00:29:36]
We
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will also
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pour that into a dish,
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and then occasionally put a little
SPEAKER_0 [00:29:43]
Breadcrumbs and stuff on top? Yeah. Breadcrumbs on the top, you know, and then bake it.
SPEAKER_0 [00:29:49]
Or lately, broiled it. Nice. Because it doesn't actually need any additional cooking. We just want a little bit of crunch on top, but we don't wanna overdo the crunch. Sure. And that is the baseline
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:01]
lemon
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:02]
macaroni and cheese. Now,
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:04]
we have thrown in jalapenos.
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We have thrown in bacon. We have thrown in seasoned
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:10]
pulled chicken.
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All of that is delicious, but it always is additive.
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:15]
It is not, as you so well said it, the star of the show.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:21]
Glad I could contribute something to today's topics besides a bad router and slow Internet.
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:27]
Alright, John. I feel like my work is done here. This is this is one for the books. I think this is gonna be one of those timeless episodes that lives on forever. The philosophical discussion about macaroni and cheese and the casserole.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:39]
Hate email. Hate comments on Facebook that I'll have to screenshot and send to you.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:44]
So we'll see how this goes, and I guess I'll see you before this comes out,
SPEAKER_0 [00:30:49]
like, in person, Stan. Yeah. Should we have macaroni and cheese, John? Sure.
SPEAKER_1 [00:30:53]
Alright. You've never fed me anything that was bad. The closest was when you didn't know how to cook lobster tail.
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:00]
I I just like to point out that that was the best lobster tail you had that day. That's very true.
SPEAKER_1 [00:31:06]
And I didn't pay for it. So There you go.
SPEAKER_0 [00:31:09]
Macaroni and cheese and we should also do Peruvian chicken because that's a new Yeah. New dish at the London household. Sounds delicious. Oh. Alright, buddy. Until next time. Alright. We'll see you.