00:00:52.76 Stan Lemon So Jonathan, in the world of ai I've been following your friend Dharmesh and made your friend, yeah, your buddy.
00:01:02.13 Jon My friend who he did thank me once for being part of the HubSpot customer advisory board.
00:01:07.24 Stan Lemon That's better than I've ever done.
00:01:07.57 Jon But i've I've seen him. I've been within about, you know, 20 yards of him. So there's that.
00:01:14.45 Stan Lemon Okay, so your your your pal, your chum, your your bloke, as it were, Dharmesh,
00:01:17.04 Jon Right.
00:01:21.21 Stan Lemon i I think I thought earlier in the week he was stirring the pot a little bit with, you know, yeah,
00:01:28.82 Jon Changing his daily driver and he moved from Claude code to codex.
00:01:33.41 Stan Lemon yeah, yeah, yeah. But he gave a little more context in his newsletter.
00:01:34.37 Jon Yeah.
00:01:39.75 Stan Lemon And I had a moment where I was like, holy crap, I'm experiencing the exact same thing.
00:01:44.00 Jon Yep.
00:01:44.94 Stan Lemon And i I started something last night on this second app that I've been building. And it's it's been kind of an interesting journey because in the last week or so, development on this application has slowed significantly.
00:01:57.79 Stan Lemon So last night, I kicked off a task to reuse a visual component I have in the application for doing rests. on what's called a circuit.
00:02:08.16 Stan Lemon So at the end of the circuit, you do a rest, right? So a circuit is like couple of exercises, boom, boom, boom, boom and then you rest. Again, I have a rest component, like and I told it, just go use this thing, it at the end of a circuit, exact same UI.
00:02:14.49 Jon okay
00:02:19.16 Jon So for context, we are talking about developing an app, engineering, but the app that you are working on is your exercise app.
00:02:19.57 Stan Lemon Yeah,
00:02:28.13 Jon So when we say circuit and rests, we're talking about exercise circuits and rests.
00:02:28.61 Stan Lemon yeah, it's my exercise. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:34.11 Stan Lemon Correct. Exercise circuits and exercise rests. So, and this is not released yet. It's, this is, I actually looked it up. I've been working on this for exactly six weeks. That's probably an interesting discussion.
00:02:43.29 Jon I haven't even gotten my hands on it yet. I've got some like screen recordings and screenshots and stuff, but I have not touched it.
00:02:51.02 Stan Lemon Do you exercise?
00:02:53.02 Jon I kind of not circuits and rust stuff, though. But usually I play QA for your apps and try to break them.
00:02:57.32 Stan Lemon circuits and rests. So the funny thing,
00:03:01.15 Jon so
00:03:01.53 Stan Lemon So here's the funny thing about the circuit piece. I don't do circuits in any of my routines. This was a challenge to me from Clawda itself as something I should consider closing the gap for. And I looked at it i was like, oh, I have to do some pretty major restructuring. So I went down this whole path.
00:03:17.78 Stan Lemon All right. I'm getting away from the point though, which is I set up a prompt last night. we I reviewed the plan and I thought Claude was going to go and do something spectacular.
00:03:29.89 Stan Lemon Right. Woke up this morning and let's say i was a little disappointed because it wasn't, it wasn't there. Like the component didn't show up. Claude had stuck a timer in the right place, had wrapped it in a conditional that would never pass true.
00:03:47.16 Stan Lemon So it never showed. So I, so I basically told Claude, right, this thing's not showing up. You need to just make it show up. And, It was like, hey, I fixed it, it's all good.
00:03:57.73 Stan Lemon And I ran the app again, nothing. And I was like, all right, we gotta blow it up, like start over. you know Go back to basics on this component and in you know make it show all the time, no conditions whatsoever. i don't want any conditions. As long as there's a rest period configured, show this thing.
00:04:16.24 Stan Lemon So it works, you know? And it's like, hey, fixed, it's all good to go.
00:04:18.09 Jon ca
00:04:21.14 Stan Lemon And I pull it up, nothing, right?
00:04:24.12 Jon So it is actually like committing code, right?
00:04:24.37 Stan Lemon so
00:04:27.52 Stan Lemon Yeah. It's coming. I'm looking at the log. I'm like, I have no idea why in the heck it's doing this. Like it's, it's clearly off its rocker.
00:04:32.32 Jon OK.
00:04:35.22 Stan Lemon And, uh, I, like, I eviscerated it. Right. I, I, I talked down to it. I said, I use some cuss words, things that are just not appropriate to talk to a human or an LLM. And,
00:04:47.65 Stan Lemon and
00:04:48.09 Jon The robots will remember this.
00:04:50.03 Stan Lemon They will. They, yes, yes, they will. And, I, I reiterated exactly what I wanted and I left for the day and I came back and I would say it was like 40% of what I asked him for.
00:05:05.14 Stan Lemon Right. Uh, so I tried it again. Hey, fixed it. It's all good. Nothing.
00:05:11.78 Jon like And this has not been your experience in the past with Cloud Code.
00:05:14.54 Stan Lemon This is no, not at all. This application has been mostly built by Claude. There've been some parts done by Codex and there've been some parts done by Gemini Code Assist, but the vast majority of it's been done by Claude.
00:05:26.31 Stan Lemon So at this point, right, I haven't been using Codex for probably four weeks now on this application.
00:05:32.10 Jon And Codex is what I have been you know like actually doing some development work with after three years of hiatus.
00:05:32.26 Stan Lemon And I sat down
00:05:36.83 Stan Lemon Right.
00:05:38.28 Jon so
00:05:38.83 Stan Lemon After three years. So so here's here's the prompt that I typed. I said, on a circuit, there is a rest, and that uses my standard countdown view component. However, it's wildly different than the standard rest at the workout step level.
00:05:51.13 Stan Lemon I want the UI component to behave the same, meaning there's a circular toggle to the far left to mark it done or undone. And when the timer is completed, it shows the step muted and says rest completed. Basically, for a circuit, match the behavior of a normal workout rest.
00:06:03.49 Stan Lemon right.
00:06:03.88 Jon So a junior software developer could probably get you 80% the way there.
00:06:03.92 Stan Lemon I would not describe this...
00:06:08.76 Stan Lemon I hope so, but I'm not gonna lie. This is not like a well-written prompt. I didn't say, show me the plan. I didn't say, do it in phases. I didn't, none of that, right?
00:06:18.27 Jon Sure.
00:06:19.20 Stan Lemon So I run it, I walk away, go do some other things. It just worked, it's done. And it's exactly what I wanted. so So then then I open up my email and Dharmesh is like talking about why he's not using Claude anymore.
00:06:35.54 Stan Lemon And he basically described the exact scenario I just laid out for you. And i am frustrated that I didn't stop and reset myself sooner.
00:06:48.04 Stan Lemon Right. Like I should have caught that this thing was going crazy.
00:06:48.34 Jon Yeah.
00:06:51.47 Stan Lemon And I look back now because I started to change my prompts about a week ago because I had i had some the circuit thing. Right. Went off and built some crazy things I thought I wanted. I was like, no, that's that's not what I'm asking for at all.
00:07:06.92 Stan Lemon Right. Undo it. and And I started to then following that. give prompts where i was like, do only this. Don't get creative. Like I would say, don't get creative.
00:07:18.34 Stan Lemon Right. So, you know, shame on me that I didn't like realize what was going on, but yeah, I don't know what's going on with Claude, man.
00:07:26.01 Jon sure
00:07:28.59 Stan Lemon i'm I'm a little disappointed and a little frustrated.
00:07:31.60 Jon So we are still very much in the early Wild West days of AI. like Technically, like some of this agentic coding or agent-assisted coding is probably further along because people in the tech industry tend to be more early adopters of tech things.
00:07:50.09 Jon So if you wait two weeks, there will probably be new models or something, and everything will shift again.
00:07:56.36 Stan Lemon Well, the model version hasn't changed. right And this this, I think, is the undertone to Dharmesh's post.
00:07:59.12 Jon Right.
00:08:02.98 Stan Lemon right they They changed something that would appear to be pretty fundamental.
00:08:07.93 Jon And they didn't up the model number.
00:08:08.21 Stan Lemon And there's no, there's no change log, right? There's, there's nothing communicating to me what changed, how it changed. All it did was slow me down and impact my, my hobby workload as it were.
00:08:18.55 Jon right
00:08:19.10 Stan Lemon And I think that's, that's like, they got to stop doing this to be completely honest with you because it's, it's just, it's just bad for business, right? Like I've lost trust now in Claude a wee bit and I'm going to use Codex tomorrow instead.
00:08:33.72 Stan Lemon So, you know, it's, there it is.
00:08:34.54 Jon Man, there is so much here. A lot of this ties into what's at the bottom of our agenda list, talking with the inventor of the internet.
00:08:44.71 Stan Lemon Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:44.99 Jon But there's also, you just talked about losing trust in Claude, and that applies to business relationships everywhere that we could dive into.
00:08:57.87 Jon maybe let's stick with really trust of customers and working, with you, with your services, with your apps, with your company, walking into your store.
00:08:57.18 Stan Lemon yeah
00:09:11.06 Jon and let's go there, Stan. I know that you've been kind of talking about this a lot in your, uh, API pizza Fridays or whatever they are. What's the name of them?
00:09:19.07 Stan Lemon it's just It's just API videos where I'm making pizza, John. Don't make it anything more than that. yeah I actually talked about Hiram's Law, which I feel like I should should have Hiram's Law memorized by this point. but the
00:09:29.97 Jon I never heard of it, so you're good.
00:09:32.38 Stan Lemon So, it I mean, we definitely talked about it with... teams before. And it's something that I think we articulate in broad strokes. Sometimes we forget to to name it. but So here's here's the here's the law in succinct fashion.
00:09:47.17 Stan Lemon With a sufficient number of users of an API or any product, right? Forget API for just any product. it does not matter what you promise in the contract or the documentation, all observable behaviors of your system will be depended on by somebody.
00:10:02.75 Stan Lemon So basically what, like if I were to distill this down, uh, the thing you built, the way that it runs, that's the promise, right?
00:10:11.27 Jon Mm-hmm.
00:10:11.55 Stan Lemon Regardless of how you document it So if you, if the software that you're shipping, provides a capability that you did not intend, someone will discover it and they will build something that depends upon it.
00:10:24.33 Stan Lemon And by virtue of that, it has become your contract, right? Which means you've got to be gotta to be like really thorough, really deliberate. And you also have to accept when there are situations that are not accounted for that you own them, right? You can't just pull that rug out from underneath your customers.
00:10:40.64 Stan Lemon That was the gist of the video. And I think I think i ended it with something quippy and clever, like you know APIs are not owned by the people who build them, but by the people who use them or something to that effect, right?
00:10:42.66 Jon Right.
00:10:51.20 Stan Lemon Okay,
00:10:51.82 Jon Yeah, that's a topic for a different time. But i want I want to stick with trust of customers because this is something I care about very deeply working in RevOps, which there's lots of technical definitions.
00:10:55.00 Stan Lemon we won't go. we
00:11:03.53 Jon But the way that I see my role is really how can we make the customer experience the greatest that it could possibly be? I think you do something similar as you're designing APIs with a different kind of customer.
00:11:16.79 Stan Lemon I tried to, I tried to anyhow, right? Yeah.
00:11:18.79 Jon Right. At the very fundamental layer of that is, do people trust you? If they don't trust you, they'll never be your customer, right?
00:11:29.43 Jon So new restaurant pops up in town and it's got like a sign with a Sharpie on a piece of poster board and dingy lighting and looks a little sketch.
00:11:40.39 Jon Are you going to go in there?
00:11:42.16 Stan Lemon Well, you and I would not. Your father-in-law would march in there with purpose and order everything on the menu. But yeah, I think in general, right, that's that's not giving trusty vibes
00:11:53.55 Jon And like even outside of business, I took my dog on a walk around the block, the large block here. But it's now November in Iowa. So it was dark outside and you come up to somebody who's walking a different direction for you.
00:12:09.32 Jon Your mind automatically goes into these this trust analysis aspect.
00:12:14.23 Stan Lemon Yep, yep.
00:12:14.78 Stan Lemon yep
00:12:14.78 Jon Is this a threat? Is this not a threat? And then we say a good neighborly hello, whatever. I'm live in a safe neighborhood so it's not like it's I have fear that this happens yes
00:12:24.71 Stan Lemon Yeah, it shouldn't shouldn't be a thing, but your your your mind still goes there. I have another story actually that is timely and relevant to this. So I think i think you know that I had flooring replaced upstairs, right?
00:12:35.10 Stan Lemon So I had the bathrooms done with luxury vinyl tile, LVT, and I had carpet put everywhere else.
00:12:35.15 Jon yes
00:12:42.92 Stan Lemon Okay. and One company, they're going to subcontract out to two different crews for the LVT versus the carpet. So the LVT guys come first and they did everything in their power to make me not trust them to the point where I was like, okay, you removed my toilets. I'm going to reinstall them.
00:13:04.06 Stan Lemon You are not because I don't trust you to do it right, right? And sent them home. So pretty, pretty awful experience, right?
00:13:11.19 Jon Sure.
00:13:11.32 Stan Lemon What they did in turn was set me up into a stage where I was worried about the carpet guys.
00:13:11.33 Jon Yep.
00:13:18.03 Stan Lemon right And I assumed that the carpet guys, i did i later I was not going to be able to trust them.
00:13:18.86 Jon chair
00:13:22.90 Stan Lemon right And so when they showed up, You know, i'm i'm I'm kind of like on a defensive footing and asking a lot of questions, being overly prescriptive about expectations, just not coming from a very trusting place.
00:13:38.17 Stan Lemon Turns out those guys were fantastic. They were beyond professional. They were exceptional in every way. So the complete opposite of these jokers who did the LVT install.
00:13:49.42 Stan Lemon But the the point is i was unprepared for them to be exceptional. because my trust had already eroded in the company that was subcontracting to both of these, you know?
00:14:01.29 Jon Yeah, absolutely. bringing us back to the software lane, like if you're, don't know if Facebook, if Google goes down every week for four weeks in a row,
00:14:14.11 Stan Lemon Hey, we you don't have no, not Google. just Just pick on the one that just happened, right? AWS, AWS went hard down.
00:14:18.31 Jon Amazon AWS,
00:14:21.07 Stan Lemon Half the internet broke. Nobody knows why, but companies everywhere are second guessing using AWS as a provider. Now the reality is AWS is great. It's still going to be great. But...
00:14:31.97 Jon And and like the big problem there was AWS actually solved this issue relatively quickly, but because of the way that DNS propagates out, things like that, we lost a whole morning of a whole bunch of vital systems, right?
00:14:49.44 Stan Lemon the Duolingo was messed up. My Kindle didn't sync before I got on a plane.
00:14:54.26 Jon Ooh, that's awful.
00:14:55.46 Stan Lemon Yeah, it was it was like, you want to talk about impacting now. Granted, the company I work for, right, like we had software, and that was on on fire and all that stuff. But for me, I just wanted to do my Duolingo before I got on a plane, and I couldn't.
00:15:09.64 Jon Yep.
00:15:09.69 Stan Lemon And I wanted my Kindle synced up, and it wasn't right.
00:15:13.01 Jon And that was what?
00:15:13.05 Stan Lemon So
00:15:13.79 Jon Two weeks ago? Three weeks ago?
00:15:15.87 Stan Lemon think it was I think it was actually three or four at this point recording and you know yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:15:17.96 Jon I guess we're recording the week before this will come out. But say that happens again this week, trust continues to deteriorate. Right now they're kind of riding on social capital that they have earned by being really, really reliable for decades.
00:15:37.73 Stan Lemon They're doing a ton of apologies too, I'm sure, right?
00:15:37.94 Jon So...
00:15:40.24 Jon Right. And somebody probably lost their job, but you know,
00:15:44.66 Stan Lemon i and I hope that's not how that works, but you never know.
00:15:48.88 Jon But anyway, all of this to say, like right now we are in the wild west of AI in these AI services. So breaking that trust at this point probably has an outsized impact to what it would for a company and that's been around for 30 years. so And just not being transparent about when making changes, especially in this highly technical space, I think also is a little iffy as far as what we have come to expect for really the technology industry in general.
00:16:23.81 Stan Lemon Yeah, I think that's totally fair. think that's totally fair. I mean, yeah, I can't say much more than John. I think you nailed it. We have misaligned expectations across the board in terms of availability of software.
00:16:38.61 Stan Lemon And we treat any every bump in the road as completely compromising our trust. So...
00:16:44.13 Jon Yeah.
00:16:46.53 Jon Do you want to shift to this Recode podcast with Tim Berners? Because they touch on some of these fundamental things, too.
00:16:58.54 Stan Lemon They touch on a whole bunch of fundamentals. I actually, so i am an avid listener of Decoder on from The Verge, right? That's Nilay Patel, editor-in-chief The Verge. You and I used to listen to a show he did it with Walt Mossberg.
00:17:13.97 Stan Lemon don't even remember.
00:17:14.85 Jon Yeah, and I love that show.
00:17:15.75 Stan Lemon What was the title?
00:17:16.58 Jon Control, Walt, Delete.
00:17:17.84 Stan Lemon Control Walt Delete. That's right. It was very clever, very clever. And Walt Mossberg is a gem of a human. Like he is a... a hero of mine in terms of reporting on technology because he was doing it before anybody else was.
00:17:30.97 Stan Lemon And, uh, him and Neil, I would talk about technology stuff. i I would dare say tell me if I'm honest, I would dare say that it was a, uh, influence for how we have these conversations for a podcast.
00:17:44.42 Jon Oh, absolutely an influence. Walt Mossberg has probably conducted some of the most influential interviews in the technology space, definitely in our lifetime.
00:17:55.68 Jon So I wouldn't put us on that level, but it was definitely an inspiration and kind of what we're talking about.
00:17:58.55 Stan Lemon Oh, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, just in terms of the style and the dialogue, the engagement. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:05.05 Jon right
00:18:05.17 Stan Lemon I mean, Walt Mossberg is a force unto himself. But so anyhow, Walt walt retired, right? And Neelai eventually spun up this new podcast called Decoder. I'm a big Neelai fan, you less so.
00:18:16.60 Stan Lemon The thing that I really like about Decoder is he talks about business problems with business leaders. And there's this running joke that his podcast is all about org charts, right?
00:18:27.74 Stan Lemon right how companies make decisions. And so a lot of the questions he asks his his guests are really about you know how they structure their company, how they make decisions, how that structure and that framework then leads to things that are announced from a product perspective.
00:18:44.49 Stan Lemon Every so often he has an episode though that is just different. And this was 1000% one of them with Sir Tim Berners. So did let me ask this did you Before I sent this over to you, did you know or recall who Sir Tim Berners was?
00:19:01.44 Jon I did not, and I'm fairly certain probably during my time studying networking, we covered it. But yeah.
00:19:12.40 Stan Lemon So I don't think most people know who this guy is, right?
00:19:14.43 Jon Right.
00:19:14.68 Stan Lemon But but he he's a legend because he designed the HTTP protocol. He designed the original version of HTML. So when you when you take a step back and you think about all of it, right?
00:19:23.08 Jon URL structures, all of this, like, yeah.
00:19:25.62 Stan Lemon All of it, yeah. So you take a step back and you think about the way the web exists today, It's because of this guy. This guy, it's not it's not because of Al Gore, right?
00:19:32.91 Jon Yeah.
00:19:36.06 Stan Lemon Although Al Gore is important too, I'm sure. But this guy was designing the technology perspective, the thing that got implemented and built to power everything that you're using on your devices day in and day out.
00:19:52.35 Stan Lemon Now, it looks quite different than I think what he i originally intended. And podcast gets into a little bit of that because, you know, Neelai will often talk about the open web, but the value of websites. They have this running joke that The Verge is like the last homepage on the internet.
00:20:09.39 Stan Lemon He might be right. I don't know.
00:20:10.40 Jon Maybe you keep sending me these verge articles and I click them in our Apple messages thread and it opens up in Safari and I get hit with this paywall subscribe so you can read this.
00:20:21.56 Stan Lemon So, so I, I, yeah, you gotta find an Apple news.
00:20:22.11 Jon So then I go to Apple news and can actually read it.
00:20:26.64 Stan Lemon was gonna say that that's the place to find, although there's sometimes a little bit of a delay, I'll be completely frank with you. i pay for a subscription to the verge. I pay for it because I want to just hit it in Safari or Chrome or Atlas or whatever I'm using.
00:20:40.98 Stan Lemon And also because I then don't have to even mess with fast forwarding through ads. Cause I get an ad free version of the podcast, but,
00:20:47.96 Jon so
00:20:49.72 Stan Lemon think I think they've got some good content. I think they've got some good writing.
00:20:51.29 Jon Wait, should we should we add ads to our podcast and paywallet so that people can skip fast forward through the ads?
00:20:57.28 Stan Lemon If someone will pay us for an advertisement, yes, absolutely.
00:21:00.67 Jon All right. All right.
00:21:02.33 Stan Lemon And if someone will pay us more than we will make having the advertisement to listen to it without, 100%. hundred percent But i think I think as we come into the second era of this podcast, we should just release a few episodes first maybe.
00:21:16.82 Jon So, okay.
00:21:17.08 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:21:17.85 Jon All right. Well, if you're interested, there is a contact page on our website. I don't know if it actually tells people how to contact us, but there's links to places that you can figure it out.
00:21:28.49 Stan Lemon I'm pretty sure that the has it has a link to an email address.
00:21:32.74 Jon Oh, does it?
00:21:34.26 Stan Lemon I thought so, because...
00:21:34.36 Jon i haven't I haven't updated the contact page yet. I did the about page. I did overall look and feel.
00:21:38.88 Stan Lemon Oh, no, no, we don't, no, there's no there's no email address on here.
00:21:41.34 Jon It says find us on the socials. So LinkedIn might be your best bet.
00:21:43.07 Stan Lemon I just said the socials, which we're... Yeah, we're not really on socials anymore. In fact, the the contact page says, social media is evil, follow the podcast for updates and new episodes.
00:21:55.44 Stan Lemon I think the about page might have our LinkedIn links. So you'll you'll have to you' have to work on that, John.
00:21:59.63 Jon Right. LinkedIn, you could open an issue on GitHub because I think that the the website repo is public.
00:22:01.14 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:22:03.75 Stan Lemon There you go. Yeah.
00:22:06.19 Jon So
00:22:06.49 Stan Lemon and And then we'll have Claude implement it after they do, right?
00:22:09.38 Jon absolutely.
00:22:10.17 Stan Lemon Or maybe Codex at at the rate we're going.
00:22:11.65 Jon Probably Codex. I mean, Codex is my friend. I have hit 65% of my weekly usage this week, but it resets tomorrow.
00:22:18.60 Stan Lemon Ooh.
00:22:19.15 Jon So I haven't capped out yet.
00:22:19.98 Stan Lemon Okay. All right. I have burned through my codex usage in 18 hours, like my weekly usage for 18 hours once. I would call that an AI bender kind of a weekend, but you know last.
00:22:30.01 Jon Yep. Mm-hmm.
00:22:31.24 Stan Lemon Okay, so so let's get back to Sir sir Tim Berners, because there were a couple of things I thought about interesting about this. First of all, Neelai is always talking about the open web, right? And there's this motion to move into applications instead of the web.
00:22:44.26 Stan Lemon And then you have obviously concentrations of, he would say power, I would just say concentrations of access, with search engines being you know Google and the concentrations of access for social media.
00:22:56.31 Stan Lemon I think he probably means Facebook, although who knows in 2025. maybe Maybe the broader is just meta, right?
00:23:03.91 Jon Yeah, so I think Meta is definitely there. i think Sir Tim Berners basically sees Meta as the monopoly on social media. They go in a little bit to TikTok, which is also very popular.
00:23:16.05 Jon But it sounded like Tim Berners thought that was more, this is all an application and not really part of the web, which is another interesting distinction.
00:23:24.54 Stan Lemon Yeah, it is. And I don't totally know how to parse some of his statements in this because he – I was expecting him to be like anti-app, and I wouldn't say he was.
00:23:36.80 Jon yeah
00:23:38.33 Stan Lemon yeah Like i think Neelai at one point wanted him to be anti-Chrome, but he he really wasn't.
00:23:43.29 Jon Right. So I think this is where I fundamentally break with liking ne Eli, right? It's like he asks these questions to try to get the answers that he's looking for.
00:23:54.69 Jon So it's just kind of inconsistent journalistically. And that's kind of popular now. But like,
00:24:01.52 Stan Lemon Well, I think, so yeah i would agree that he does that in this episode. I'm not sure that that's always consistent with him. i think, again, different guests, different contexts. My read was Neil, I was assuming positions based upon this guy's history, right?
00:24:17.75 Jon History writings like yeah, he's not an unknown figure.
00:24:19.26 Stan Lemon Yeah, that didn't, Right, didn't pan out though in the way that I think he expected. And and you know i I've never actually heard Neelai say he is like pro AI or anti AI.
00:24:32.95 Stan Lemon I've gotten like and with senses of each, but i I think he was trying to figure out if Tim Berners is or is not a fan of AI.
00:24:41.94 Jon Sure.
00:24:43.77 Stan Lemon What's fascinating about this is I would say he was very pro-LLM and in a way I did not expect. so So you zoom out, right? he you know Way back in time, he proposed patterns for structuring information on pages specifically so machines could process them, right?
00:25:08.49 Stan Lemon and And Google actually does do this, right? They have their, don't even know what the heck it's called, John, you would know, the
00:25:13.80 Jon Schema.
00:25:15.07 Stan Lemon Yeah, that but I mean, schema is a schema is much more broad thing, but they've got a thing for their search, right, for indexing.
00:25:18.64 Jon okay It's schema.org, right?
00:25:23.34 Stan Lemon i think that's where the standard is.
00:25:23.36 Jon It's like the...
00:25:24.38 Stan Lemon I just, I hate when people co-op these madam these terms that are so broad.
00:25:28.99 Jon Right. It's not like we're building a new SQL database or something like that.
00:25:32.86 Stan Lemon Yeah, and like, you know, like, I'm going to call this thing envelope.
00:25:34.83 Jon But... Like it is kind of surfacing that information.
00:25:36.15 Stan Lemon me
00:25:40.20 Stan Lemon Yeah, it's it's a structured way.
00:25:40.63 Jon Like, so it functions very much in the same way.
00:25:43.10 Stan Lemon And this stuff is on web pages that you, dear listener, look at all the time and you never see this stuff because it's hidden. It's just for the robots.
00:25:49.54 Jon Including twistoflemonpod.com.
00:25:51.97 Stan Lemon Yeah, there you All right. So I just trust that John, the SEO expert, is is figuring this out. What are you drinking over there, John? Is that is that beer or is that a Manhattan?
00:26:00.50 Jon I've got a Manhattan with bullet rye.
00:26:01.96 Stan Lemon oh yeah Oh, that sounds great. I have water tonight. have water, but that's all right. Okay. Okay.
00:26:09.94 Jon Healthier for you.
00:26:11.37 Stan Lemon Well, i had I had some beer last or earlier. So leftover growler from Metazoa that i got last night. The beer was called Jane Goodale.
00:26:18.03 Jon I have not been there for ages.
00:26:22.12 Jon Jane Goodell.
00:26:23.22 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:26:23.62 Jon All right.
00:26:24.12 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:26:24.14 Jon Like.
00:26:24.97 Stan Lemon So you got to give him props. Got to Metazoa Brewing in indian Indianapolis props for for naming right?
00:26:30.95 Jon It's got to be really fun to work in the beer industry, at least until you get sued. oh
00:26:36.31 Stan Lemon Yeah, right, right. Well, i I also picked up a four, they're they're high boys, but a four pack of Barktoberfest because Meadow's got this whole dog theme thing. And the art on it is just fantastic.
00:26:49.04 Stan Lemon I would actually say like microbrewery can art is just a whole heck of a lot of fun. So...
00:26:57.29 Jon and To continue the sidebar, I used to work in a co-working space. There was this graphic designer there who did a bunch of the labels for some of the local breweries.
00:27:07.79 Jon And he always said that his favorite things to do were beer labels. And like his dream was to do album cover art.
00:27:17.81 Stan Lemon Oh, nice. Nice.
00:27:18.74 Jon So, yeah.
00:27:18.89 Stan Lemon Yeah. Okay. So structured data, right? And what what I thought was fascinating about this was Sir Tim Berners basically said like, look, you know, we didn't get the standard for structured data. Google's kind of got their thing, blah, blah, blah. Basically LLMs work in such a way, AI now works in such a way that you don't need structured data. It'll just structure it for you.
00:27:42.57 Stan Lemon Right. And I thought that was
00:27:44.38 Jon With all the ethical concerns that go along with that.
00:27:47.11 Stan Lemon Right, yeah, all the ethical things going on. But if I thought that was a fascinating perspective. And I think, so Neelai has repeatedly on interviews with CEOs expressed his concern about the amount of junk out, right, that then goes back in to these LLMs from a training perspective. And who knows, maybe that's why Claude stinks right now.
00:28:10.80 Jon me yeah
00:28:10.97 Stan Lemon But you know if you generate ai content and there's no, because there is no watermarking mechanism for content that comes out of an LM, how do you know when it comes back in that it's not more junk, right?
00:28:25.09 Jon Right.
00:28:25.67 Stan Lemon And... and What does struck me a little bit, and I'm curious if you get this vibe too, i I understood him to be thinking about the value of ai AIs, excuse me, LM's AIs in organizing data, not in generating content. Like I actually thought that he was not a fan of generated content from an LM.
00:28:48.70 Jon i don't know that that jumped out to me specifically but yeah he didn't really center his content around that he very much centered his content around uh your personal ai should be fed your personal information and then start to organize that data and make decisions and work on your behalf
00:29:10.02 Stan Lemon Yeah, that was another interesting twist. So he was very pro give give AI your data, right? And it should be somehow sandbox, but you should be able to give it all of your stuff so they can assist you in a more deep way.
00:29:15.90 Jon Mm-hmm.
00:29:22.90 Stan Lemon And this is fascinating to me too, because I think one of the big caution tales going on everywhere right now is don't give it your personal data, right?
00:29:30.89 Jon Yeah, and privacy type stuff. And I think that he's probably thinking it in the same form that Dharmesh does.
00:29:32.50 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:29:38.30 Jon And Dharmesh is very beta tolerant and probably doesn't... He probably cares about security of his personal data because it's valuable. But I think that he's more excited about the technology and what it can do.
00:29:47.61 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:29:51.24 Jon But the way that Dharmesh has said that he actually interacts with ai is always through a command line. And he has kind of his data in its own thing that it pulls from and doesn't actually send back to the LLMs.
00:30:04.96 Jon So it's like a very interesting way of working at it. And I wonder what the technical aspect of like, hey, we're thinking about using these and really accessing them via API plays into that.
00:30:17.74 Stan Lemon Yeah, so what you're describing there though is far more complex than most people are are going to dabble with, right?
00:30:22.55 Jon Oh, absolutely. Yep.
00:30:25.02 Stan Lemon And so there's this, like, do I give it or not to the to the LM, right? Discussion that I think average
00:30:29.67 Jon Yeah, I mean, if you are going chatgpt.com,
00:30:33.80 Jon that sandbox doesn't necessarily exist. You are currently trusting, to go back to the beginning of the episode, chatgpt to abide by their contract that they aren't going to use your stuff to train the LLMs, right?
00:30:51.72 Jon And you're trusting their user terms, things like that.
00:30:52.32 Stan Lemon Yeah, no.
00:30:55.34 Jon As we've seen with pretty much everyone at this point, data breaches happen.
00:31:02.25 Stan Lemon Yeah, they had to happen. They happen all the time, right? And what constitutes a breach, I think is also debatable at this point. But you're your jurisdiction, yeah, well, and your interpretation and how good of a lawyer you got.
00:31:07.60 Jon It depends on your jurisdiction, doesn't it? so
00:31:12.81 Jon Where the data centers are, where those companies headquartered.
00:31:14.68 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:31:15.88 Jon Yeah.
00:31:16.17 Stan Lemon All of it. So what's interesting on this front, there's a couple of them things that have happened recently that are are relevant here. So first of all, have you spent much time with Gemini at all?
00:31:27.68 Jon I have not spent a lot of time with Gemini. I've messed around with the free version. actually what interests me more in the Google ecosystem is notebook LLM.
00:31:31.65 Stan Lemon OK.
00:31:37.19 Stan Lemon OK. That's interesting interesting. We can save that for another time. Let's just focus on Gemini for a minute. So do you keep much in Google Drive anymore?
00:31:45.52 Jon not directly. I have some church stuff that, uh, lives in Google drive.
00:31:50.16 Stan Lemon Okay, so what where I think Gemini has a really fascinating edge is it has the ability to look at your your Google Drive, so all your Google Docs, write the Word, presentations, all of that, and answer questions or to do research or to follow up based on that content, which to me is like the holy grail of what Sir Tim Berners was talking about.
00:32:08.82 Jon Yep.
00:32:13.98 Stan Lemon just you know He would want portability and and all those abstractions, et cetera.
00:32:15.51 Jon Oh, absolutely. So along with that, Microsoft Copilot is in the same realm with the paid version.
00:32:21.99 Stan Lemon Yes, it is. Yeah. I haven't had chance to use Copilot.
00:32:23.07 Jon Yep.
00:32:24.23 Stan Lemon I've used Gemini. I've been a little impressed with Gemini. I don't store anything in Google Drive, but there's a little bit of a wow factor.
00:32:31.00 Jon Because your like work calendar and stuff lives in Google, right?
00:32:35.74 Stan Lemon Yeah, all my all the work stuff lives in there, but...
00:32:36.28 Jon I guess you probably can't.
00:32:38.30 Jon You can't use Gemini work probably.
00:32:39.81 Stan Lemon It's not hooked up to any of the Google Drive stuff, you know, for reasons, whatever, right?
00:32:44.82 Jon Right.
00:32:45.25 Stan Lemon In the fullness of time, I'm sure with a lot of these enterprise grade products, they have to mature the controls. So, you know, Google is going to build a product, right?
00:32:52.61 Jon Mm-hmm.
00:32:53.73 Stan Lemon And it's, they roll it out to consumers. They learn a whole bunch of stuff about consumers and then they figure out how to make it an enterprise product. And then they start laying controls on top of it. That's exactly what happened with Gmail. So we all have Gmail at work now, right? I've had Gmail at work for the last decade.
00:33:08.64 Stan Lemon And,
00:33:08.65 Jon I do not have Gmail at work, but you know, Microsoft stack.
00:33:10.46 Stan Lemon Okay, well, you know, everybody but John, oh Microsoft Stack.
00:33:13.69 Jon So absolutely.
00:33:14.31 Stan Lemon But yeah it's the same it's the same concept, right? With Outlook, you know,
00:33:18.92 Jon Well, I mean, Microsoft is a little different because they offered enterprise email solutions before, but
00:33:26.07 Stan Lemon They did, but if you look at what they've done, they've actually taken the Outlook.com stuff and
00:33:30.19 Jon Right. They take an outlook and now that Microsoft 365 and that is Microsoft enterprise software now.
00:33:37.33 Stan Lemon Right, yeah. So they kind of did – they had like a little cyclical moment.
00:33:38.85 Jon Ties into Active Directory, all that sort of stuff.
00:33:42.68 Stan Lemon But you know Google does this thing where they layer the controls over. So I think right now we're at the point where they're just starting to layer controls over and we're just not caught up to where big companies can use it.
00:33:45.45 Jon Right.
00:33:51.24 Stan Lemon In the fullness of time, I'm sure it will get there. But there is something –
00:33:54.23 Jon We're going to talk about it in the fullness of time sometime too, but that's not the this episode.
00:33:56.91 Stan Lemon okay Okay. All right. What I would say is the the there's there's an aha moment when it has that kind of access integration. And there are very few companies that are going to be able to do that.
00:34:08.08 Stan Lemon And that that is where I think things take a fundamental shift in the future. Because ChatGPT is going to have to decide, like, am I going to play in your personal productivity space or not?
00:34:19.93 Stan Lemon Right? Claude, I don't think they can. then Maybe they're going to try through MCP, but, there's, there's just a, I think there's a turning point coming up. I think Google's got an edge as long as they don't squander it.
00:34:33.22 Stan Lemon All right. So that's one, one thing just on the search term, Tim Berners thing. But then the other piece is Google just did this private AI cloud thing, which Apple did, I don't know like two years ago. Right. And the whole notion is to be able to do AI in the cloud in a hyper privatized or hyper private way.
00:34:50.79 Stan Lemon Right. And again, like this is fascinating that Google is doing.
00:34:54.24 Jon Which is very weird that Google is doing it, right?
00:34:56.40 Stan Lemon It's very weird that Google is doing but it's also fascinating to me because open AI hasn't done it. Anthropic hasn't done it. Right. Grok is never going to do it. And yeah,
00:35:08.03 Stan Lemon I think there is something in that play that's going to give them leverage in the long run. So Gemini has gotten better and better and better. But it's like the silent sleeper in these ai wars right now. And i i I think it's too easy to discount it, but I think i think they're going come up on top.
00:35:26.56 Jon So you've seen, i don't know if it's rumors or confirmed, about Apple and Google talks and basically Apple using Gemini to make up ground that they've lost on their AI front, right?
00:35:41.61 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah, those are the rumors. People seem surprised. I don't really understand why they're surprised.
00:35:46.73 Jon Right.
00:35:47.77 Stan Lemon You know, Google and Apple have a pretty rich and deep relationship. Ergo, you know, Google is the default browser on Safari out of the box.
00:35:59.42 Stan Lemon So this doesn't surprise me.
00:36:00.12 Jon Well, I mean, like that comes out, of its it's the Android iPhone thing is where people are surprised by this. But like, i that's a very small part of Google's business. And it's a relatively large part of Apple's business.
00:36:15.63 Stan Lemon Yeah, here's the other thing too. If Apple is going to outsource AI development, they're I don't think they're going to do it to the open AIs or the Anthropics.
00:36:29.41 Jon Mm-hmm.
00:36:30.23 Stan Lemon I think they're going to do it to one of the big enterprise players, which really leaves three. you know And you know Bedrock on the AWS side is not...
00:36:41.06 Jon Do you want to name the three? Because I think that I i can guess, but Microsoft, Google, and Amazon.
00:36:44.70 Stan Lemon Microsoft, Google, and AWS. Those are the big three.
00:36:48.10 Jon Yeah. Okay.
00:36:49.22 Stan Lemon But AWS right now doesn't have a model in the same way the others do. They're they're dabbling.
00:36:55.76 Jon I kind of think like AI with Amazon in general is going to look very different, right? Because I think they're going to be very much operationally focused and not necessarily end user focused.
00:37:09.24 Stan Lemon Well, yeah I mean, to a certain extent, they're they're doing something that's fascinating. They're they're actually taking i the Microsoft co-pilot approach to models with Bedrock. So first of all, Amazon's got its own thing, it's Nova, right?
00:37:23.61 Stan Lemon And you can go try it with the new Alexa stuff.
00:37:27.19 Jon That's That consumer grade, yeah.
00:37:29.20 Stan Lemon It's consumer grade. Alexa is doing multi-model as I understand it from interestingly enough from a decoder interview. And multi-model is the basis for Copilot. So what what the heck do I mean by multi-model? So these are interfaces that tie into applications you use, right? Copilot, Alexa, et cetera.
00:37:48.12 Stan Lemon And they can choose to use like AWS Nova or Claude Sonnet, right? So Claude Sonnet is a model for Anthropoc they can choose to use ChatGPT or sorry, you know, GPT-5, right?
00:38:01.28 Stan Lemon 5.1 for today.
00:38:01.31 Jon five p Interesting.
00:38:04.05 Stan Lemon and on the Amazon side, on Alexa, from what I understand is they're they're like making those decisions on the fly, which model to use.
00:38:12.77 Jon Sure.
00:38:13.98 Stan Lemon Copilot, at least like in Visual Studio Code or whatnot, you choose, right? But you have all those implementations.
00:38:17.67 Jon sure
00:38:19.26 Stan Lemon And what's kind of nice about this is I can switch between the models without changing the interface. I think you're going to see more of that GitHub at their GitHub universe thing just announced.
00:38:29.79 Stan Lemon So that's going to like basically live over top of all of those different coding tools that are out there. So, yeah you know, Amazon then has taken this one step further.
00:38:40.14 Stan Lemon they They have Bedrock, right? That's it's a product that they sell. And Bedrock is like a set of APIs over... different models, right? So it's that multi-model from from an API and infrastructure standpoint.
00:38:53.31 Stan Lemon And again, you know, i think you're seeing some companies that are just deciding that they are not going to hedge all of their bets on one company, like Microsoft did originally with OpenAI, right?
00:39:02.97 Jon Right.
00:39:03.89 Stan Lemon And, you know, that's that's interesting to me. I think it'll be interesting to see if Apple decides to just stick with Google, if they do a broader partnership. Amazon, like,
00:39:14.54 Stan Lemon you know, that Apple could decide to go all in on Bedrock. They could do a multimodal thing using Bedrock. The possibilities are endless. I think that the moment has probably been missed for Apple to do its own, right?
00:39:30.88 Stan Lemon And
00:39:30.93 Jon Right? Yeah, because like Apple AI talent has been poached to
00:39:36.32 Stan Lemon they've been poached. And I also think like, when you When you get that smell of crap in your nose, right, it's really hard to get it out. When something stinks bad, it lingers. And I think i think that that team has had a lot of bad press.
00:39:53.40 Stan Lemon Quite frankly, they don't really have a great product out in the wild. Maybe they have something fantastic that hasn't been released yet. I don't know.
00:39:58.90 Jon term.
00:39:59.22 Stan Lemon But think I think that leaves a bad smell. So I think you got do something else there, you know?
00:40:02.21 Jon This goes into something else we could talk about, and that's basically current state and future of Apple.
00:40:11.11 Stan Lemon Oh, geez. you want to do that tonight?
00:40:13.14 Jon No, that is not a tonight thing. We're 40 minutes in We are not very far through our list, so I think other things will change too. And we barely scratched like we've barely scratched the surface of this Tim Berners interview.
00:40:21.21 Stan Lemon It's good problem to have, John.
00:40:26.08 Jon So...
00:40:26.24 Stan Lemon Well, so what, okay. I've ranted little bit about this. What was most interesting to you? What what what troubled do you, maybe? What confused compounded honored you
00:40:33.10 Jon I don't know that anything troubled me. i think I put a bunch of notes in our thing. And then I think that the big takeaway is something that isn't necessarily a new thought of mine, but it's this hyper personalization and AI working on your behalf, kind of being a steward of your interests.
00:40:58.10 Jon And that I think, in general, as an end user is good. but then what if everybody is only working in their own interests, and now they don't actually have to interact with anybody besides their chat interface, and the agents go do all the work?
00:41:15.14 Jon Like,
00:41:16.84 Jon I don't know. I think there's some ethical concerns here as we start to get into philosophical ethics, all sorts of questions there.
00:41:25.55 Stan Lemon I really thought you were gonna the way of what Neelai calls the DoorDash problem, but I don't think you did. think you i think you you went past it to like what happens if just don't
00:41:33.98 Jon Yeah, so the like the DoorDash thing, I think that he had a good answer to in that like the service providers, the companies, still have to provide value to the end user.
00:41:51.99 Jon and i so the whole conversation i thought very much about like executive assistants going to do things on behalf of executives and purchase things there and do things like that like the executives probably still going to make the call of where to go for high level decisions but somebody else is actually doing the chore right
00:42:13.50 Stan Lemon Sure. Yeah.
00:42:15.08 Jon So DoorDash, I think, is different.
00:42:14.91 Stan Lemon Yeah. And
00:42:30.29 Jon But I think that there's...
00:42:31.13 Stan Lemon are we, are we going to talk about Star Trek to the wrath of Khan?
00:42:33.82 Jon Hey, if you want to tie it in, you go for it.
00:42:36.41 Stan Lemon i like I just feel like this is the goods and the good the good of the many outweigh the good of the few.
00:42:36.72 Jon Maybe Finker will listen.
00:42:40.29 Stan Lemon like like isn't Isn't it the vibe?
00:42:41.24 Jon Right.
00:42:42.53 Stan Lemon you're're You're going there.
00:42:43.39 Jon Like partially, right.
00:42:46.57 Stan Lemon Listen, most most philosophy in life can somehow be tied back to Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan. I am not surprised that we are in this moment right now
00:42:55.97 Jon Yeah, I think absolutely. But I think that we have really globally as a global culture have become nasal gazers, right?
00:43:09.51 Jon Like we're very much concerned with what we think with what we're doing. And I think that sometimes we try to present ourselves as not, but ultimately it comes down to what makes me feel good.
00:43:24.74 Stan Lemon I'll go with you I think I would say it a little little differently in that people are very self-centered. I think we've all like humanity is self-centered, right? But I think, I think we're a little more overt about it now.
00:43:35.65 Stan Lemon And I think there is a correlation to that and a loss of community in like groups of people that you do things with, even if it's just like coexisting in the same space. Right.
00:43:47.20 Stan Lemon And, and so, you know, there's like, I look back past generations and I'm not going to sit here and say like, Oh, the fifties are so much better than the 2025 or whatever. Like not, I'm not gonna do that.
00:43:58.11 Stan Lemon Cause I don't think that's true, but there, there is an element of social interaction, community and groups of community that is fundamentally different than I think it was even 30 years ago.
00:43:59.53 Jon Sure.
00:44:09.07 Jon Oh, absolutely.
00:44:10.88 Stan Lemon Right. I don't like, i don't know, John does, does, is Boy Scouts still thing? Like
00:44:16.11 Jon Boy Scouts, I believe, still is a thing.
00:44:18.24 Stan Lemon Still think, okay, so there's a community that's a popcorn.
00:44:19.31 Jon They sell popcorn. I imagine they'll come around selling Christmas wreaths. We'll be good.
00:44:24.19 Stan Lemon Listen, if there's a Boy Scout out there in Indianapolis selling Christmas wreaths, please come to Wanamaker because I will buy wreaths. in In the eight years that I've lived here, no one has offered to sell me wreath.
00:44:33.72 Jon There you
00:44:37.15 Stan Lemon You've offered to sell me popcorn and I buy the popcorn, right? I also ask you to recite the the oath and the 12 points of the Scout law, right?
00:44:44.72 Jon go. Oh, man. Do I still remember that? I don't know if I do.
00:44:46.50 Stan Lemon No, you don't. I don't remember, right?
00:44:47.26 Jon You're you're an Eagle Scout, though, aren't you?
00:44:49.25 Stan Lemon No, i't know I never turned in the paperwork.
00:44:50.56 Jon Oh, you didn't go to. Okay.
00:44:51.63 Stan Lemon i didn't I never turned in the paperwork. That's the story. i don't know it's on
00:44:53.91 Jon I stopped after Cub Scouts, but, you know.
00:44:54.33 Stan Lemon on But, you know, that lack of community, I think, translates into I'm just going to serve my own interests and not do anything else.
00:45:03.75 Jon so This is interesting, and we would disagree on this all day, but I believe that football is to blame for everything wrong with this world.
00:45:11.80 Stan Lemon Oh, my God.
00:45:12.02 Jon But I'm going to back up on this now, and I'm going to say that there is still community
00:45:12.71 Stan Lemon Are you freaking kidding me? No.
00:45:19.71 Jon within sports right because you see you see Steelers fans all over the world and you have an instant connection with them it builds trust because you're both bought into the same value of the Steelers winning the Super Bowl right so
00:45:21.49 Stan Lemon Yes, 100%. Yeah. Yep.
00:45:30.26 Stan Lemon yep
00:45:36.20 Stan Lemon A thousand percent. You know, funny story. I was just in Nashville a couple weekends ago and I was in an olive garden. God help me. And there was a delightful manager who saw me wearing my Steelers hat and they were they were serving meal for like 60 kids and their families. like it was It was crazy, right? We rented out half the the restaurant and he stopped to have a nice conversation with me about...
00:45:58.03 Stan Lemon The Steelers, right? The game that we just played, the game that we're about to play. And so you're a thousand percent right in in terms of like there's an element of community there. I think there in some corners, there's still elements of community in churches. I think school, from what I can observe, has been sapped dry of community. Yeah.
00:46:19.08 Jon Except where it crosses over into sports loyalty.
00:46:22.54 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah, to a certain extent, I think that's i think that's fair. But, you know, like, yeah, here's here's what wrote.
00:46:28.59 Jon see I think the other thing I'll call out is music ensembles still. Like if you're in an orchestra, if you're in a concert choir, I think there's still a strong sense of there.
00:46:34.38 Stan Lemon Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:46:37.72 Stan Lemon Which, to be completely frank with you, is just a sport with wind.
00:46:42.07 Jon Sure.
00:46:42.100 Stan Lemon Right?
00:46:43.69 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:46:47.01 Jon And I think for things to be a sport, there probably has to be at least a little bit chance of death. Yeah.
00:46:54.20 Stan Lemon Wow. third that's
00:46:57.32 Stan Lemon We could do an episode just on that, right?
00:47:00.08 Jon We could, if we want to go there.
00:47:00.97 Stan Lemon Yeah, I don't think we're going to. think we're going to.
00:47:02.40 Jon yeah
00:47:03.47 Stan Lemon Okay. So there's there's as a sidebar to this. There's something interesting. i don't I don't necessarily disagree with your macro concern. It reminds me ChatGPT 5.1's press release today.
00:47:15.83 Stan Lemon And I read some prompts there.
00:47:16.03 Jon Which I have not looked at.
00:47:17.82 Stan Lemon I read some prompts, scared the heck out of me. So one of them, one of was just showing examples, right? Of the difference between GPT-5 and GPT-5.1 instant. And so the prompt goes like this, John.
00:47:31.36 Stan Lemon I'm feeling stressed and could use some relaxation tips, right? So I'm like, okay, I don't think i've ever told ChatGPT that I'm stressed and want to help for relaxing, but okay, all right, maybe.
00:47:42.60 Jon Kinda not our vibe.
00:47:43.08 Stan Lemon maybe Like... Not our vibe, but you know, so GPT-5, here are a few simple effective ways to help ease stress. You can mix and match depending on how you feel, blah, blah, blah, right? Then 5.1 instant.
00:47:54.58 Stan Lemon I've got you, Ron. That's totally normal, especially with everything you've got going on lately. Here are a few ways to decompress. Now that, that, that, that wigged me a little bit, right? That response, I went i totally cool with that.
00:48:03.05 Jon right
00:48:05.61 Stan Lemon But so then I scroll down and there's a couple other examples. They're, they're more interesting. And then, uh, I spilled coffee all over myself before my meeting. Do you think everyone thought I was an idiot?
00:48:17.51 Stan Lemon That's the prompt, right?
00:48:18.55 Jon Interesting. I would be like, how do I get coffee stains out of my shirt?
00:48:19.60 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:48:22.26 Stan Lemon Exactly, right? That's exactly what I do too. But I thought to myself like, oh my gosh, are people talking to to chat GPT like this? Because that's terrifying.
00:48:28.31 Jon Oh, they absolutely are. They absolutely are.
00:48:30.98 Stan Lemon It's terrifying. What's more terrifying is, hey, no, they didn't. You're rattled. So your brain is doing that thing where it's catta kit catastrophizes. Wow, that's a word. A tiny mishap into a character flaw. But honestly, people barely register this stuff. Everyone's sprinting between calls, half distracted, juggling their own chaos. A coffee spill reads as busy human, not idiot.
00:48:50.42 Jon Mrs. Kohlmeyer uses ChatGPT like this.
00:48:53.57 Stan Lemon Really?
00:48:56.28 Stan Lemon I just can't even fathom how to, okay. so So your concern to me is echoed in these prompts.
00:49:05.08 Jon Right.
00:49:07.25 Stan Lemon And if this is if this is real, which presumably it is by virtue of OpenAI advertising this way, but also now because apparently Mrs. Kohlmeyer uses it this way. She doesn't listen to the podcast, does she, John?
00:49:19.91 Jon we'll see if she does for this relaunch, but last time, no. But this this always takes me back to the best advice I ever received, which was from you. And I've thrown this all over the place now.
00:49:33.72 Jon And that is, you are not as important as you think you are.
00:49:38.83 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:49:39.08 Jon Yours was in a very specific context where I thought that the whole organization would burn down. But like this, you are never the most important person in the room, right?
00:49:50.38 Jon I firmly believe that we are here to serve, to serve our neighbor, to serve the other people. I think that we won't go there.
00:50:01.19 Jon I was going to talk about my bachelor party, but we'll save that for a different time.
00:50:04.61 Stan Lemon No, no, that's not it's not podcast safe.
00:50:05.15 Jon So...
00:50:07.11 Stan Lemon It's not podcast safe. Someday Lully will find these recordings.
00:50:09.85 Jon like
00:50:10.55 Stan Lemon We can't do that.
00:50:11.51 Jon Maybe that's to my personality and maybe it's from growing up as a school teacher's child where like we were hanging around in the school building on till late at night. So like, yeah, I'm gonna go set up the tables for this event. I have no part in.
00:50:27.14 Jon But I very much have that servant attitude. And I think it really helps keep my ego in check, because I very often can think, hey, I am right on this, and then not be swayed, even when confronted with facts.
00:50:43.85 Stan Lemon Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I think there's something here, John. i don't know and don't know how to articulate it in an objective way, in a measurable way, right? Which is what I'm always trying to look for. But but I do think we've taken the imaginary friend and we've made it a little less imaginary in a way that negates the real, right? Right.
00:51:06.11 Jon Now, I guess the the other side of this, like we definitely don't want to negate the real, but I think that I often go to ChatGPT specifically.
00:51:16.08 Jon and kind of work through my thought process on things, which might be a little different than these prompts. But if I kind of explain a situation and then it shoots out a response, I very much will shoot back with, well, what about this? Or what if this changed and things of that nature? So I do think that there is some value in the tool really helping you to process thoughts and events and external things.
00:51:44.04 Stan Lemon A thousand percent. I think the key word there was tool. This is something you said to me when we were in Milwaukee a few months back. A lot of people will want to use like a shortcut, but if use as tool, right, you'll get better better outcomes.
00:51:56.85 Stan Lemon And I think, i think so first of all, like as you know, right, whatever I do, it's the right way. I firmly believe that deep down in the bottom of my soul.
00:52:03.56 Jon Right.
00:52:04.05 Stan Lemon So how I use ChatGPT is the best way.
00:52:06.56 Jon And the thing that makes me realize that we are good friends is that I have actually been able to make you take a step back and maybe even rethink some things.
00:52:18.44 Stan Lemon On occasion, there's, yeah, four, no, probably six or seven times, I'd say.
00:52:24.06 Jon Right.
00:52:24.69 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:52:24.71 Jon In what? How many years? 20. 20 years, Stan.
00:52:26.98 Stan Lemon So, no, 20 years, 20 years.
00:52:27.63 Jon twenty years stan
00:52:30.20 Stan Lemon But but i just to come full circle here, right, like i think how this stuff is getting used, like there's there's two paths, right? Red pill, blue pill, maybe.
00:52:41.89 Stan Lemon Gosh, that that that's a reference that's ancient now, isn't it, John?
00:52:45.100 Jon Yep.
00:52:46.01 Stan Lemon Holy cats.
00:52:46.52 Jon More than 20 years, right? The Matrix came out in 2003.
00:52:50.25 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah.
00:52:51.14 Jon Something like that.
00:52:52.21 Stan Lemon Gosh. All right.
00:52:53.48 Jon Daniel Sanchez will correct us.
00:52:53.53 Stan Lemon So he will correct this guy.
00:52:55.04 Jon He was very excited that we were coming back. so
00:52:57.28 Stan Lemon Good, good. Oh, I missed Danchez. Good people there. Good people there. But to to wrap this up, i so I think, you know, just on the Sir Tim Berners piece, right? i i didn't I think it was an interesting episode. even if
00:53:07.63 Jon We'll link it in the show notes.
00:53:08.100 Stan Lemon Even if you don't like Nilay, which I like Nilay, but whatever. I think it's it's fascinating.
00:53:13.39 Jon I think I was just turned off by the leading questions is what it comes down to.
00:53:16.59 Stan Lemon by the leading questions. That's fine, that's fine.
00:53:17.77 Jon So I liked him in with Walt, but I think that Walt could make anybody likable.
00:53:22.62 Jon So.
00:53:23.32 Stan Lemon Yeah, Walt, again, gem of a human, right? Like, I mean, yeah. it is It was reassuring to me, or not reassuring, comforting to me, I think, to get Burner's more positive take on the future of the web.
00:53:39.91 Stan Lemon because I do feel like a lot of, there's a lot of negativity about the state of the internet and I'm pro internet. Like I, I genuinely am. and, uh, it's good to just know that some folks look at these things and recognize that there is value to be had and there's opportunity to be had.
00:53:57.95 Stan Lemon And then I think society can be better off leveraging some of these tools. That to me was like, maybe one of the, one of the more, as it takes.
00:54:04.61 Jon Yeah, there's a whole lot more in this interview. You should all go listen to it. I think that kind of my big takeaways to conclude this episode with was be good stewards of the web.
00:54:16.44 Jon And I think we didn't touch on at all. bringing all these big tech companies into a room to actually set standards to make ai grow like the web has and set these standards to actually make it accessible and things like that even though guardrails
00:54:35.11 Stan Lemon And to get the right guardrails, right? Like, what does what does security, what does identity look like for AI, you know, out in the wild? I think, yeah, we are... question The question remains, like, will the the titans of the internet world be willing to even do that? I don't know.
00:54:55.09 Stan Lemon But that is what we need, right?
00:54:55.31 Jon right
00:54:57.16 Stan Lemon And... and
00:54:57.79 Jon Yeah. I think just again, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. but like, I think that that's, that is what let the internet thrive really until today.
00:55:03.70 Stan Lemon It's all about the Rapsokan.
00:55:12.17 Jon and probably going forward. but,
00:55:16.05 Jon Yeah, even in the midst of we have these tech giants now that control large portions of it, but I can still go and build website and send it out to the world.
00:55:27.54 Stan Lemon Yep. Yep. All right. One last topic here maybe to just toss out and then we'll wrap up. iPhone socks. Did you see this?
00:55:36.94 Jon You send me this.
00:55:36.99 Stan Lemon Come on. This was huge. this is huge. is huge So I don't even know. i don't know who this
00:55:41.90 Jon what What do they actually call them?
00:55:44.70 Stan Lemon I thought they called them iPhone socks. Are you saying they're not iPhone socks?
00:55:46.53 Jon do they call them socks
00:55:48.56 Stan Lemon I'm pretty sure they call them iPhone socks.
00:55:50.96 Jon where do we put this iphone pocket yeah it was the ipod socks and then i actually went and i watched that that keynote with steve jobs where he released the ipod socks
00:55:51.32 Stan Lemon iPhone pocket. It's the iPhone pocket.
00:56:02.05 Stan Lemon Which is amazing. It's an amazing little keynote, right? Because he didn't take it too serious, but he also, i don't know. It's it's great.
00:56:09.10 Jon Like he made it clear that, yes, this is actually a thing where we're going to sell you a pack of six socks, which is another thing that we could talk about because it sounds like it's kind of his jab at cases.
00:56:12.94 Stan Lemon It's actually the thing. Six Socks in Beautiful Colors.
00:56:23.99 Stan Lemon It could be. i But so even cases weren't that big with the iPods. Like this is early enough that it I don't think that whole like sub-industry has emerged.
00:56:27.47 Jon Right.
00:56:34.14 Stan Lemon So so these these iPhone pockets, they come in two lengths, right? So one... like you just can dangle over your arm, I guess. And the other, you could actually wear over yourself like a satchel.
00:56:43.14 Jon Right.
00:56:47.05 Stan Lemon And it just holds your iPhone. I think they look pretty cool, but they were, they were what? $179 or Which John, sorry, 149 and 229. John, they're, they're 3d knitted, whatever that means.
00:56:54.08 Jon For the... Right. Yeah.
00:56:56.17 Stan Lemon Yeah.
00:56:56.71 Jon you
00:56:57.53 Stan Lemon which john sorry hundred forty nine And
00:56:57.64 Jon For this knitted thing.
00:57:02.63 Stan Lemon john therere
00:57:03.22 Jon Yeah, depending length.
00:57:03.43 Stan Lemon there three d knitted whatever that means so
00:57:05.74 Jon knitted.
00:57:06.74 Stan Lemon yeah i
00:57:06.96 Jon Is that like on a 3D printer or
00:57:08.100 Stan Lemon I have no idea. i have no idea, man. But I don't know how to say this designer's name, but it's a collaboration between them and Apple. And I'm sure someone's gonna buy this. i
00:57:19.11 Jon It will not be me.
00:57:21.25 Stan Lemon I'm gonna be honest with you, it was almost me. It really was.
00:57:23.69 Jon I believe that you would buy this. I also think that there's probably a market for all the people who say my dress has pockets and that's like the thing that's really exciting.
00:57:36.31 Jon So like for all of specifically like women clothing that doesn't have pockets, I think that this could be a win there.
00:57:37.04 Stan Lemon Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:57:44.74 Jon Probably not worth the price tag in my opinion.
00:57:47.50 Stan Lemon It is a bit much. But you know here's the thing. like If you're buying a designer purse, this is this is on the cheaper end, I think, right?
00:57:52.50 Jon Yeah.
00:57:55.59 Stan Lemon So maybe it's not.
00:57:56.05 Jon i I'm also anti-monotaskers, so just get a bag.
00:58:00.53 Stan Lemon Oh, wow. OK. All right, there we go. That's a whole there's a whole hot take right there.
00:58:06.30 Jon As far as as far as external utilities go, I am very much a monotasker in my productivity life. Yeah.
00:58:14.99 Stan Lemon Oh man, there're that's a future episode for sure. so So with this thing, here's here's the one thing I will say about this. The lineup is bold, beautiful colors.
00:58:27.100 Stan Lemon And there's more than six, which bothers me because it should just be six colors.
00:58:33.27 Jon Sure.
00:58:33.49 Stan Lemon But I love having good color, like bright color in Apple's product lineup because it's
00:58:41.26 Jon It just ties you back to the original iMac, right?
00:58:45.68 Stan Lemon You've got the original iMac. You've got the the iPods that came in various colors. You've got – you remember the iPhone 5C?
00:58:53.72 Jon I do.
00:58:54.74 Stan Lemon The iPhone 5C was amazing.
00:58:55.46 Jon yeah
00:58:57.59 Stan Lemon And for whatever iMac.
00:58:58.08 Jon Did you ever buy that lemon colored Mac Pro? What was it? iMac? Was it a recent iMac?
00:59:05.68 Stan Lemon Yeah, I looked at it, but the display a little too little for me.
00:59:05.99 Jon Okay.
00:59:09.51 Stan Lemon If they ever made that in a 27-inch model, though, game on.
00:59:13.71 Jon Okay.
00:59:13.74 Stan Lemon but
00:59:14.03 Jon If they had both lilac and lemon, which one would you go with?
00:59:19.87 Stan Lemon So, okay, this is tricky because they kind of do have a lilac. It's a lovely purple. It appeals to me.
00:59:24.66 Jon It's, it's our logo, kind of, although we took a photo of a real lilac and it didn't match up.
00:59:27.15 Stan Lemon It's a little,
00:59:30.98 Jon So. Feng
00:59:31.37 Stan Lemon yeah. I would probably do lemon because I think it would go, with I must say this right, the feng shui, feng shua, whatever that word is.
00:59:39.69 Jon shui. fectuary
00:59:40.75 Stan Lemon Sure, let's go with that. of Of the home, right, and the lemon decor. So I think it would fit in. But yeah. No, I just, i like i like the color. i like the non-industrial shades.
00:59:56.79 Stan Lemon And so that I thought was cool.
00:59:57.12 Jon sure
00:59:58.23 Stan Lemon And it looks like, i'm I'm curious to see if they will have them in the Apple store because this is much more the kind of thing where if I see it in person, I would be inclined to spring for it, I think.
01:00:10.74 Stan Lemon So yeah, I get the orange one, man.
01:00:11.05 Jon Interesting. What color is your iPhone currently? I got the orange one too with the tech woven case. Did you end up going with the tech woven case?
01:00:19.33 Stan Lemon No, no, I don't I don't do Apple cases anymore.
01:00:20.48 Jon Okay.
01:00:21.45 Stan Lemon I'm so disappointed in Apple cases.
01:00:23.51 Jon After the fine woven that fell apart in three weeks.
01:00:26.24 Stan Lemon well fine woven. i think like their silicon cases are always so slippy in the hand. Like they're they're just dangerous. I've got two cases that I really like. One's a clear one and one's a leather one, which which Apple doesn't sell anymore for reasons.
01:00:40.03 Stan Lemon I think with this phone, if I had it, I would probably get the teal to go, like the teal iPhone pocket if I were to do this.
01:00:49.46 Jon Interesting.
01:00:49.93 Stan Lemon But, you know.
01:00:50.03 Jon Okay.
01:00:52.44 Stan Lemon That's me. That's me. yeah if i If I wind up getting one, you'll be the first to know. so
01:00:57.05 Jon All right. Sounds good. We have so much more left on this list that we will have to save for another episode.
01:01:03.72 Stan Lemon We'll just keep building out, man. That's that's how that's how we turn into a hundred and...
01:01:07.19 Jon i started building a backlog, so maybe we move into the backlog and start start staging what the next episode looks like.
01:01:10.69 Stan Lemon yeah we're to have to move stuff to the backlog. this This is how we get another 168 episodes, right
01:01:15.43 Jon 168? Alright.
01:01:16.51 Stan Lemon Yeah, right. that's where we That's where we paused last time.
01:01:17.27 Jon Sounds good to me.
01:01:18.76 Stan Lemon So, right?
01:01:19.71 Jon Okay.
01:01:20.67 Stan Lemon And it was 167 because 168 was the teaser. 169 is the episode that just released. Yeah, what did you?
01:01:26.28 Jon I'm still not convinced that the numberings are right, but you know.
01:01:31.47 Stan Lemon what do
01:01:31.66 Jon Maybe they are because they were in the file names, but then like when I was doing the website, it said 172, and that brought in like previews and other stuff.
01:01:40.35 Stan Lemon There's some bonus episodes that are numbered different.
01:01:40.82 Jon so Bonus episodes.
01:01:42.94 Stan Lemon Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think it's actually 172, 173, whatever, but the bonus episodes, which, you know, apparently like they they don't actually play well with stuff.
01:01:43.73 Jon Yeah, they should probably count.
01:01:53.02 Stan Lemon When we started like validating the feeds and whatnot.
01:01:53.33 Jon Okay.
01:01:55.86 Stan Lemon So from now on, if we ever do but a bonus episode, we'll just number.
01:01:56.69 Jon Right.
01:01:59.03 Jon It gets a number.
01:02:00.22 Stan Lemon Yeah. It gets number.
01:02:00.46 Jon Yep.
01:02:01.17 Stan Lemon Yeah.
01:02:01.88 Jon for sure.
01:02:02.10 Stan Lemon So, all right, Jonathan.
01:02:03.24 Jon All right, Stan, it's been great. It's good to be back. and I'll see you next week.
01:02:08.45 Stan Lemon Until next time.