Gemini Floats, Codex Stumbles (But We Still Love It) - Transcript

00:00:52.64 Stan Lemon Jonathan, every individual on this earth, and I mean everyone, man, woman, child, all of them, need to have a strap wrench.

00:01:04.65 Stan Lemon Do you know what a strap wrench is Jonathan?

00:01:06.67 Jon I believe I do. i definitely do not own one.

00:01:10.41 Stan Lemon All right. You need to go out and you need to buy one. Okay. This thing has come in handy more times than I can count. And tonight we were in mission critical zone.

00:01:21.77 Stan Lemon So for those that don't know, a strap wrench is quite literally a strap with like a tightening system on one end and a handle. So you strap it around a thing and then you can use it like a wrench, right?

00:01:35.49 Stan Lemon That's the premise. It's not rocket science.

00:01:36.91 Jon Yep.

00:01:38.44 Stan Lemon It is a gift from God.

00:01:40.67 Jon Okay.

00:01:41.23 Stan Lemon Okay. So the first, well, we'll get, we'll get there.

00:01:42.22 Jon What could you not get undone?

00:01:47.21 Stan Lemon So the first time I ever used a strap wrench was actually for an oil filter on a car, bought one for a friend.

00:01:54.05 Jon I remember this.

00:01:54.74 Stan Lemon And at that point in time, I should have bought one, John. I should have bought one, but I didn't.

00:02:01.42 Jon And you had bought like one of those oil filter wrenches before that, right?

00:02:01.48 Stan Lemon Um, the, Yeah, and those things those are stupid.

00:02:05.07 Jon And it didn't does work. Yeah.

00:02:06.28 Stan Lemon they Yeah, they're dumb. I ended up, ah i think I think pure muscle sweat and swearing got me through the first oil filter. The second time that I needed a strap wrench was ironically for an oil filter as well. This was during the pandemic. Strap wrenches were sold out.

00:02:24.81 Stan Lemon And so I bought the ah the Death Grip of God wrench which is, I mean, it destroys an oil filter on the way off, but it works, right? um The third time I needed a strap wrench was for my reverse osmosis filters.

00:02:41.77 Stan Lemon And I'm confident that's the next time I'm gonna need them. Like I know for a fact that that will be the next thing I need to use it on. But tonight, I, because I texted you, right? I asked, what are you what are you having for a drink for tonight's recording?

00:02:53.17 Jon Yep.

00:02:53.46 Stan Lemon And and you told me,

00:02:55.81 Jon I was going to make an old fashioned with the, that's what I told you I was going to do, but it is right here.

00:02:58.50 Stan Lemon wait, wait, wait, what do you mean was?

00:03:03.46 Jon I did in fact do it.

00:03:04.36 Stan Lemon Oh, okay. All right.

00:03:05.00 Jon So

00:03:05.12 Stan Lemon See, you use... All right, Pat. All right, folks. Shall we do a grammar lesson on the difference between...

00:03:10.19 Jon this is why editing is, is important. um But yeah.

00:03:13.55 Stan Lemon Yeah, no kidding. All right. So I thought to myself, I should i should also make a Manhattan, right?

00:03:16.02 Jon Anyways.

00:03:21.07 Stan Lemon I was not sure that I had whiskey of any kind, right? Which is an unusual state for my house to be in. um But I had been on a tiki craze not too long ago, mostly your fault.

00:03:32.43 Stan Lemon And i when I got home...

00:03:33.07 Jon I didn't even get to taste the fruits of this being my fault.

00:03:37.45 Stan Lemon you You will have your moment. You will have your moment. So I got home and I started digging through the cabinet, right?

00:03:40.32 Jon OK.

00:03:43.25 Stan Lemon Trying to find my whiskey. And it turns out that I had an unopened bottle of Woodford Reserve in the back. Normal Woodford, mixing Woodford, right?

00:03:52.01 Jon Nice.

00:03:53.63 Stan Lemon Mixing Woodford.

00:03:54.16 Jon Mixing wood fruit. Sure.

00:03:54.99 Stan Lemon Yeah. So was like, okay, good. I'm halfway there. Now, I had also bought the most expensive bottle of sweet vermouth that Total Wine had.

00:04:05.90 Stan Lemon And I have never used it.

00:04:06.08 Jon Tim.

00:04:07.63 Stan Lemon I bought it for Tiki stuff and did not put it into motion because I had 16,000 other things for Tiki. So was like, okay, great. I got Woodford, right? Pretty decent bourbon. And i got um this higher end sweet vermouth. I am on the road to success.

00:04:26.86 Stan Lemon So I don't i don't have Luxardo's cherries at the moment. Shame on me, right? I'm i'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed to admit that. i feel like this has been an intervention, so I will tell you I did not have Luxardo cherries in the house.

00:04:38.70 Jon You can be upset with that. I, on the other hand, am cheap. So, like, you can buy filthy cherries, too.

00:04:47.72 Stan Lemon Well, so that's what I had, okay?

00:04:49.04 Jon Okay.

00:04:49.80 Stan Lemon So i had I had a jar of filthy cherries ah for for tiki purposes. And I could not for the life of me get this thing open.

00:04:57.93 Jon I have run into that with those jars, too.

00:05:00.52 Stan Lemon it it was It was awful. i like I hope that someone on the internet who works for Filthy Cherries will listen to this. Your containers suck. Like they are awful. I don't know what it is. Because I thought thought that it was like sugar, right?

00:05:15.59 Stan Lemon encrusting And crusting. And I'm using one of those jar grippies.

00:05:16.64 Jon Sure.

00:05:19.85 Stan Lemon And I have a rubber or silicone, whatever it is, mitt, oven mitt, right?

00:05:25.94 Jon Yep.

00:05:26.44 Stan Lemon Jar on one hand, I got the grippy on the top. And I, John, I'm not, I don't think I'm weak. Like I, my wrists aren't the strongest, right? I know that.

00:05:34.87 Jon Sure.

00:05:35.51 Stan Lemon I'm aware.

00:05:35.56 Jon But you you open many jars throughout the course of a week.

00:05:38.06 Stan Lemon I opened the many jars. I opened jars last weekend and I had no problem, right?

00:05:39.29 Jon Yeah.

00:05:41.50 Stan Lemon So what's a little sugar going to do to stop me?

00:05:44.67 Jon Right.

00:05:45.48 Stan Lemon Um, that that jar wrecked me, man. Like it conquered me and I didn't know what to do. And so then I got to thinking about like quite literally tools in my toolbox.

00:05:57.71 Stan Lemon And at first I i was like, oh the vice is out. Cause Henry's been using the vice. I'll just put the jar upside down in the vice, but then I'm like, no, that's a bad idea.

00:06:04.87 Jon No, that's a bad idea.

00:06:05.61 Stan Lemon Right? Yeah.

00:06:06.61 Jon Yeah.

00:06:06.92 Stan Lemon You're not gonna put the vice on the glass side either. so so I ruled that out. I went to the, the,

00:06:11.85 Jon Okay. Smart decisions were made.

00:06:13.52 Stan Lemon Yeah, smart decisions to make. So then I went to the the death grip clause, right, that I used to destroy the oil filter. And i was like, right, I might be able to get the lid off, but I won't ever get the lid back on. If I do it on the glass side, it's going to break. Chairs are lost.

00:06:27.44 Stan Lemon So then I remember that my my sweet youngest had asked me before my 40th birthday what I wanted.

00:06:38.70 Stan Lemon And she had no idea what a strap wrench was, but I said strap wrench, right? Not because I needed a strap wrench in that moment, but I knew that a moment would come when I would need a strap wrench because everybody will have that moment, right?

00:06:52.14 Jon Yeah.

00:06:53.23 Stan Lemon So I reached into the toolbox and I pulled out the strap wrench, Jonathan.

00:06:57.87 Jon Yeah.

00:06:58.16 Stan Lemon You know what?

00:06:59.18 Jon It worked.

00:07:00.34 Stan Lemon No, no, I did not.

00:07:01.02 Jon Because you need two of them.

00:07:03.60 Stan Lemon I have to, I have to, at this point I'm like, okay, vice grip and strap wrench.

00:07:03.63 Jon ah Okay.

00:07:08.27 Stan Lemon And I'm, ah I'm about ready to just say Manhattan, no cherries, which is not a thing. Like you cannot have a Manhattan without cherries, right?

00:07:14.18 Jon Correct.

00:07:15.65 Stan Lemon Key ingredient at at at best I'm left with bourbon and sweet vermouth.

00:07:16.08 Jon I agree.

00:07:20.92 Stan Lemon Okay. So I put the whole thing under hot running water and popped right off.

00:07:26.77 Jon OK.

00:07:29.13 Jon Interesting. so it was sugar.

00:07:31.60 Stan Lemon I don't know. i don Like, John, it was under the faucet for like 30 seconds at most.

00:07:38.28 Jon don't know.

00:07:38.60 Stan Lemon I think it takes longer for sugar to melt.

00:07:39.37 Jon Interesting.

00:07:40.28 Stan Lemon So I don't, I don't like in, in my heart of hearts, I want to believe that the strap wrench loosened everything up. Okay. Cause that's what makes me feel good about this whole, this whole incident.

00:07:52.27 Stan Lemon I don't know if that's true. And I like, I can't go back in time. I cannot ascertain whether or not the strap wrench did it. The hot water did it or, or anything like I don't know.

00:08:01.80 Jon So the current jar that I have, I've not had any problems with. The one before this I did, and I kind of felt like it was cross-threaded or not threaded correctly, but it was a pain every single time I tried to get it off.

00:08:16.16 Stan Lemon honestly, there's a non-zero chance that after we're done with this call, I eat all of the cherries in the jar so that I don't ever have this problem again. Okay.

00:08:23.78 Jon All right. You could just, you know, like pour them into a mason jar or something.

00:08:24.40 Stan Lemon Like I might just sit down eat them

00:08:29.04 Stan Lemon or Tupperware. But yeah, you're, listen, your point is valid and sensible.

00:08:30.41 Jon Or Tupperware, sure.

00:08:32.88 Stan Lemon Mine is fueled by rage and, and I just, sometimes I need to feel heard.

00:08:38.86 Jon You remember where we ah found out about Filthy Cherries, right?

00:08:42.86 Stan Lemon Yeah, we were on the boat. We were on, sorry, I'm sorry.

00:08:44.31 Jon We were on...

00:08:45.31 Stan Lemon The Disney folks actually take offense to this. When you say boat, we were on the ship.

00:08:48.49 Jon It's Chip. Disney Dream, I believe it was at the the district bar when we asked him, hey, what cherries do you use?

00:08:54.76 Stan Lemon It was at the district bar. Yeah.

00:08:56.80 Jon Because these taste pretty darn good.

00:08:58.57 Stan Lemon Right. Cause I mean, I assumed Luxardo's to be honest with you, but they were not. So Jonathan, that that was how I got here. and And again, I feel like this is a PSA for humanity.

00:09:13.29 Stan Lemon Go buy a strap wrench. You don't need one today. You might not need one tomorrow, but the day will come when you will need a strap wrench and it will, it will make you smile. Cause like even in my rage with the filthy cherries, I enjoyed using a strap wrench because a strap wrench is a great tool.

00:09:27.98 Stan Lemon Great tool.

00:09:29.35 Jon There are many tools that I have bought because you told me that I needed them. um Most of them have certainly been well. The one I bought when I needed it because I didn't listen to your advice beforehand.

00:09:42.32 Jon um But that was a ladder.

00:09:44.75 Stan Lemon yeah

00:09:44.78 Jon And a Sawzall are the two big ones that stand up.

00:09:49.03 Stan Lemon Sawzalls, they're just handy, man. I mean, and again, there's some tool. I don't like to buy stuff that I'm not gonna use, right? So I'm i'm pretty much a just-in-time purchaser for most things.

00:09:58.04 Jon Right.

00:10:01.58 Stan Lemon When it comes to tools though, there are tools that you will need in your darkest moments and you do not have the luxury of going to the Lowe's or the Home Depot and sometimes it'll be in the dead of night too.

00:10:14.99 Stan Lemon A Sawzall is one of those things where you know you may need to get something out of the way cut a pipe, you may need to cut down a tree, whatever. But it will be horrifically inconvenient when you need to do it to go to the store, right? It'll kill the momentum.

00:10:30.76 Stan Lemon So it's just good to have.

00:10:32.88 Jon You know, like when a tree falls on your roof in derecho and the power's out for a week. I was real glad I had my ladder to go up and tarp off some of the water so it stopped coming in.

00:10:44.26 Jon But, you know, tarp is a good one.

00:10:44.78 Stan Lemon There you go Tarp. A tarp is actually one of those things, right? Like if you don't, if you don't have a tarp in your possession right now, go buy it when you get the strap wrench, right? Tarp, strap wrench, boom. You know?

00:10:54.70 Jon Ladder, if you're a homeowner.

00:10:56.30 Stan Lemon Yeah. here's so Here's another thing too. Do you, do you have like just a thing of rope laying around?

00:11:00.91 Jon I don't know if I currently do. There might be some in the garage.

00:11:02.48 Stan Lemon You got to get some rope, man. I'm telling you that like, this is another one of those things that there's something that's going to go seriously wrong and you're going you had rope. I have, I have a, I've got a big old, I think it's a hundred yards, a hundred yards. No, that's a lot. A hundred yards would be a A hundred feet.

00:11:17.27 Stan Lemon No, it's more than a hundred feet. Maybe it's 200 feet, 250 feet, something like that of of rope just sitting on my shelf. Right. And I've had it, it's been sitting there for five, six years. Haven't used it when I need it. It will be there. Right.

00:11:29.96 Stan Lemon Right. And, and you know, it's, it's like a flashlight, right? How many times do you actually need a flashlight?

00:11:37.16 Jon Um, not often, but I've been thinking about buying one for when I'm taking the dog for a walk after work and it's pitch dark outside.

00:11:43.21 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that that's a use case. That's ah that's ah like a valid use case. But in general, right, you want a flashlight when the power goes out, right?

00:11:51.62 Jon goes out. Yep.

00:11:52.76 Stan Lemon And it means got be charged too. People buy stupid flashlights and think that it's going to be great for a two-hour power edge, right? and And you've got to buy a legitimate flashlight.

00:12:00.41 Jon Yep.

00:12:04.82 Stan Lemon You're not going to use it every day, but it's got to be there.

00:12:07.65 Jon Got to be there.

00:12:07.92 Stan Lemon I don't know. Yeah, it's got to be there.

00:12:09.10 Jon probably have batteries on hand, you know?

00:12:11.28 Stan Lemon batteries, even more than that, like the flashlight has to be charged, right? So you can, you like people can knock on mag MagSafe, Magalite, no Magalite, MagSafe is a thing on my phone, Magalite, all they want, right?

00:12:15.83 Jon Yep.

00:12:21.98 Stan Lemon The big heavy metal ones. um Those suckers, when you need them, if you've left them plugged in, are gold. They are exceptional. ah But you know, people don't want to like spend a little bit extra for a great flashlight.

00:12:36.37 Jon I don't know how I feel about battery or flashlights that you have to plug in.

00:12:41.10 Stan Lemon I mean, it's a little charging thing, right?

00:12:43.61 Jon OK. Fair

00:12:44.40 Stan Lemon Battery lasts longer. it is what it is. Just deal with it. It'll be fine.

00:12:48.74 Jon enough.

00:12:49.74 Stan Lemon People put batteries in these flashlights, right? And then they they like start leaking battery acid and blah, blah, blah, and they ruin the unit.

00:12:56.11 Jon And then the flashlight doesn't work.

00:12:56.30 Stan Lemon like

00:12:57.22 Jon OK.

00:12:57.23 Stan Lemon Yeah. The Maglite, the one that I've got, it's got like an integrated lithium-ion battery. and And so sits on the charger. When I need it, i pop it off. It's good to go. It's not a big deal, but it's super useful.

00:13:08.97 Jon feel like we should link this in the show notes.

00:13:11.92 Stan Lemon I can definitely dig up. I have three mag lights. Man, I keep wanting to say MagSafe today. I have three mag lights. I love them all. One of them I actually keep in my laptop bag. It's a little itty bitty one.

00:13:23.60 Jon Nice.

00:13:24.40 Stan Lemon Yeah, that sucker has been handy. You know when that came in handy the first time? I was on a ship in the middle of the Caribbean and I needed a flashlight because my phone wasn't plugged next to me because I got the side of the bed that didn't have the the outlet, right?

00:13:38.54 Jon Did they solve that on the newer ships? I haven't sailed on newer ships.

00:13:41.04 Stan Lemon The newer ships, yeah. i In fact, I think even the the the wonder has got more outlets than the dream.

00:13:42.61 Jon Okay.

00:13:48.24 Stan Lemon Yeah, like the dream, I don't know i don't know what was going on.

00:13:49.84 Jon The Dream is bad. Yeah.

00:13:51.12 Stan Lemon The dream is bad. i like it's They were not thinking through it as far charging goes.

00:13:52.98 Jon As far as charging things, the Dream is a beautiful ship.

00:13:55.00 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah it's an amazing ship. I love it. I love everything about it except for having to charge stuff.

00:13:59.90 Jon Right.

00:13:59.92 Stan Lemon But the the counter the counter like argument to all of this is the designers of the dream wanted you to vacation and recognized that the best way to do that is with a dead phone.

00:14:11.47 Jon Which was great until you like had to use your phone for everything.

00:14:16.69 Stan Lemon So that's been fixed though. Remember like the first time we were on a cruise ship, you had to use it to look at the menu.

00:14:20.78 Jon At the menus, yeah.

00:14:21.97 Stan Lemon Now they give you the menu.

00:14:22.48 Jon but like All of the programming stuff is still in the app, right?

00:14:26.35 Stan Lemon Yeah, but it it is here's the thing though. If you just, so there's two things that you can do to not use your phone to get the programming. One, you walk around the boat. Cause it's quite literally posted everywhere. You go the Walt Disney Theater, you can see what's going on, right?

00:14:40.94 Stan Lemon So not rocket science, you just gotta use your two feet.

00:14:41.22 Jon OK.

00:14:44.24 Stan Lemon The other thing is they do those announcements, right? Midday. And they will tell you everything you need to know. And then there's option three, which is just look like a lily and you'll walk into someplace and you catch half a movie and it's okay.

00:14:58.38 Stan Lemon You know?

00:14:59.90 Jon All right, I'm with you. I need to book another cruise. You have several booked at this point, don't you? Okay, just do a couple.

00:15:05.04 Stan Lemon Just two, just two. Yeah.

00:15:08.18 Jon something

00:15:08.56 Stan Lemon Couple. Yeah. Yeah. A couple, not a Chicago couple, a couple, right? For those that don't know what Chicago a couple is, you just look on the internet. It's like we say a couple and we could be in two or more, right? Which my wife will remind me like, Stan, we are a couple.

00:15:25.26 Stan Lemon Couple is not you, me and John, right? That's that's three people, right? So anyhow, yeah.

00:15:29.78 Jon correct but that example has probably been used too

00:15:33.14 Stan Lemon Yes, it has. It has multiple times. Right now, John, you and I, we're recording as a couple. I mean, okay, that sounds weird. You get what i'm saying though. It's two. It's just two. It's not more than two, right?

00:15:42.74 Jon uh

00:15:45.54 Stan Lemon Here's the funny thing too. you spend any time in my my native land, right? You will hear people refer.

00:15:52.17 Jon chicago he's talking about he's from chicago

00:15:53.62 Stan Lemon Yes. You will hear people say a couple and it is an indeterminate number of things. The only thing you know about a couple is that it is more than one.

00:16:03.22 Jon A couple to tree.

00:16:05.00 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah, something like that, you know?

00:16:07.00 Jon Sure.

00:16:07.50 Stan Lemon Oh my gosh, man. All right, i'm heaven no look I do have the Manhattan.

00:16:10.00 Jon This is nothing that we were supposed to talk about. I see that you have the Manhattan. It looks like you stirred it and then strained it into your glass. Nope, there is a giant ice cube.

00:16:18.74 Stan Lemon No, no, no.

00:16:20.29 Jon OK.

00:16:20.38 Stan Lemon There's a giant ice cube. I'm not gonna lie to you. i I completely eyeballed this one.

00:16:26.99 Jon Nice.

00:16:27.02 Stan Lemon I poured into the glass and I used a spoon, stirred it real quick. It was the spoon that I used with the cherries. So I poured in bourbon. i was like, looks good. Poured in the sweet vermouth, looks good.

00:16:39.12 Stan Lemon Got the dirty cherries, filthy cherries, sorry, not dirty cherries, filthy cherries open. And I used the spoon to scoop out two of them, right? cause Cause only heathens make Manhattans with one cherry, right?

00:16:50.24 Jon I think that there's like, maybe it's olives and martinis where you're supposed to do one or three because two is bad luck. We should probably look those up.

00:16:57.17 Stan Lemon That's fine. I'm just telling you that if you make a Manhattan and you only put one cherry in, it's not a Manhattan and your life is sad, right?

00:17:03.44 Jon This is interesting because I don't know if I agree with this because I will often use a one fairy. so

00:17:09.85 Stan Lemon Well, maybe your life is sad, John. right. Okay. So I'm a, I'm a big believer in two cherries, right? With a little bit syrup, right? To chase it. So I use the spoon and then I just stirred it, right? Cause I was in a rush, man. I had to get back here to do the podcast because I was already late. Cause I checked in on work stuff. Cause I ducked out a work of a little bit early to go to Pilates class, which is a story of his own so ah in ah in and of itself. Excuse me. Wow.

00:17:35.82 Stan Lemon and um And my manager was messaging me. So like it was a whole thing. Didn't want drop off right away. Go go to make the Manhattan. That's a whole stressful experience as I've already described. Go buy strap wrenches.

00:17:47.63 Stan Lemon And after I dropped the cherries in, i do three or four swirls. I reach into Mrs. Lemon's fancy ice maker on the fridge and I got one of those spherical ice cubes, right?

00:17:59.15 Jon Nice.

00:18:00.07 Stan Lemon I dropped it in and I literally did this. So you for the listener who can't see this, I just i shook the glass.

00:18:05.88 Jon Yeah.

00:18:06.38 Stan Lemon Yeah. in And I'm good to go, right?

00:18:07.46 Jon Yep.

00:18:09.62 Stan Lemon I think the vermouth and the bourbon is blended enough that I'm not going to care. Here we are.

00:18:14.76 Jon yeahp And my guess is you probably got your proportions right, but it's probably larger than a standard Manhattan would be.

00:18:22.25 Stan Lemon It could be larger than a standard Manhattan.

00:18:24.30 Jon Although you get pretty good at this if you use the same glass every time you mix Manhattan.

00:18:27.73 Stan Lemon Yes. Yes. And that is absolutely key. I think the other thing too you and I have talked in the past, maybe not in the podcast, but about the right proportion, right? what What is actually good, whether or you sweet vermouth, dry vermouth, combination of them.

00:18:44.59 Stan Lemon And so ah this this, I would say, is not overly sweet. I was, I wanted, okay. Okay. It's sweeter than I would normally make it because I haven't used this vermouth much. I spent a lot for this vermouth.

00:18:57.06 Stan Lemon Haven't used it It's been sitting in the fridge and I wanted to taste it a little more. So I'm getting more of a vermouth forward flavor in this Manhattan.

00:19:04.69 Jon Is it good vermouth?

00:19:04.93 Stan Lemon and

00:19:05.67 Jon Okay.

00:19:06.93 Stan Lemon I like it. I like it better than the Martini Rossi. I have a little bit of Martini Rossi in the back.

00:19:10.71 Jon Well, yes. Better than that. Better than Gallo. But

00:19:14.70 Stan Lemon Yeah. Well, here's the problem though. Like you, if you go even the liquor store here closest to the house, if you, both of them,

00:19:19.74 Jon yeah, they've got the two, three to $6 sweet vermouth.

00:19:23.73 Stan Lemon They just have Martini Rosi, man.

00:19:23.96 Jon Yeah.

00:19:25.77 Stan Lemon Like that's it.

00:19:26.31 Jon Yeah.

00:19:27.31 Stan Lemon And so when I went to Total Wine, I think there were four options, right? Martini Rosi was one, Gala was the other. ah There's something else I can't remember. And then the one that I have, whose name I also don't remember, but I can look up on totalwine.com if we need. Anyhow, that one was the most expensive.

00:19:42.74 Stan Lemon I quite literally took a picture of it with ChatGPT and said, hey, what should I buy? And ChatGPT, who, you know, there's probably like, Big Liquor is probably in on GPT recommendations at this point, basically told me, Stan, you like craft things, right? You like fine the finer things in life.

00:20:07.02 Stan Lemon You could go with the Martini Rosie, but you are more more likely to notice the difference, the improvement in the top shelf sweet vermouth, and so you should do that, right?

00:20:18.38 Jon Or at least you'll convince yourself that you can.

00:20:20.74 Stan Lemon Bingo, right? Now, ChatGPT's not going to tell me that because, you know, again, I'm sure Sam Altman's got, he's he's probably on the payroll for Big Liquor and is trying to, you know, sell me the fancy vermouth.

00:20:21.49 Jon Right.

00:20:32.27 Stan Lemon But, yeah. That was early ChatGPT. That was probably, that was like, not early ChatGPT, but it was six months ago, right? We were we werere still living in, like, oh, yeah, it was 4.0, right?

00:20:38.58 Jon I know, that was completely different things.

00:20:41.71 Stan Lemon Like, half the recommendations were made up anyhow.

00:20:44.38 Jon Right. And they are now.

00:20:47.18 Stan Lemon they're They're less made up, right? But,

00:20:50.00 Jon who can play the game the best.

00:20:51.47 Stan Lemon Who can play the game? Who can play the game? You know, I surprised myself a little bit. I was asking Chachapiti today. So we're recording this on Wednesday the 19th. This is going to release almost a week later. It is what it is, folks. It's Thanksgiving. there's i'm traveling. It's crazy. So it's a little bit of a time delay.

00:21:09.55 Jon Yeah, I will have probably seen you and left by the time this drops.

00:21:12.21 Stan Lemon Yeah, you you you will. You absolutely will. Unless we decide to release Tuesday. But anyhow, regardless, like this is about a week off. So as we're recording this, it is the night before NVIDIA will announce their quarterly earnings.

00:21:23.76 Stan Lemon Did you know that, John?

00:21:24.21 Jon click They announced them today, Stan.

00:21:27.06 Stan Lemon No.

00:21:27.95 Jon Yeah, I got the Robinhood notification.

00:21:30.07 Stan Lemon I thought it was tomorrow.

00:21:31.38 Jon NVIDIA is up 5% apparently.

00:21:34.55 Stan Lemon Oh my gosh, John, I'm totally wrong.

00:21:36.23 Jon You are. This wasn't even on the agenda, otherwise I would have ah called you out on it.

00:21:41.74 Stan Lemon Holy mother crap.

00:21:42.12 Jon They did beat earning expectations though. so

00:21:45.45 Stan Lemon What was their forward-looking guidance?

00:21:48.10 Jon I didn't dig that deep. I didn't dig that deep.

00:21:52.14 Stan Lemon Okay, well, this, all right, the whole podcast has been blown ah We're to about this. So this morning I asked, like, should I sell some other stock? Is the market going to tank because of NVIDIA earnings?

00:22:03.34 Stan Lemon And I had a whole conversation and I was surprised Chad Chippity actually gave me like pretty concrete advice about hold or sell. um And it's, it's advice to me today was surprisingly was because I gave it an exact number and it told me it's sell half of it today and half of it tomorrow.

00:22:22.89 Jon Interesting.

00:22:23.85 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah. I thought it was very interesting. So I was worried that because, you know, as as NVIDIA goes, the rest of the market goes, it's like, what, 5% of the S&P 500? Like, it's an insane amount.

00:22:33.70 Jon Yep, it's crazy.

00:22:34.86 Stan Lemon Yeah. um And so I figured if NVIDIA, here's what I was expecting. And again, apparently i'm totally wrong. My sense of time is wrong. No one is surprised except me.

00:22:47.40 Stan Lemon ah If NVIDIA beat their earnings expectations, which I anticipated they would, That would be fine, but their guidance, right? So how they thought they were going to do roadmap for the next chip generation, all of that, I thought if it wasn't like spectacular, the whole market was going to correct negatively.

00:23:07.35 Jon Yep.

00:23:08.30 Stan Lemon um It would appear that that was not the case based upon after hours earnings.

00:23:13.13 Jon NVIDIA stock continuing to go up.

00:23:15.37 Stan Lemon Yeah. So, man, I tell you what, to to work at NVIDIA, what ah what a crazy ride that would be. But time of their life, right?

00:23:24.77 Jon For sure.

00:23:26.94 Stan Lemon yeah It's got to be like those folks who were working on Apple in 2006, you know?

00:23:33.78 Jon Right.

00:23:35.11 Stan Lemon um I've been thinking a lot about that recently just in terms of how... how exciting it is to see technology evolving so fast. So do you do you remember 4? do you remember iOS 5? Okay, 2008.

00:23:49.42 Jon um Probably not.

00:23:53.03 Stan Lemon So iOS 4 was in April 2010.

00:23:56.81 Jon So I got my first iPhone in 2008. iPhone 4.

00:24:03.02 Stan Lemon two thousand eight host

00:24:03.32 Jon Is that right?

00:24:04.65 Stan Lemon so i was four was in april twenty ten

00:24:05.45 Jon Yeah.

00:24:08.55 Jon Okay. So maybe I do?

00:24:11.31 Stan Lemon You probably do. So there was this moment in time, right? sorry Do you remember when skeuomorphic went the way of the dinosaur?

00:24:19.24 Jon Yes.

00:24:20.23 Stan Lemon Okay. All right. Everything up to skeuomorphic, it was like release to release. They were going to do something amazing, something cool, something big, something huge. And it was, we were so underdeveloped in this space that every release, we actually couldn't predict what they were going to do.

00:24:39.24 Stan Lemon You know, whether it was the hardware, whether it was the OS.

00:24:39.72 Jon Correct.

00:24:42.35 Stan Lemon And that was, exciting think it was exciting. You know, um before that, the only experience I had of, ah that was similar, would have been the the jump from like P2 to P3 to P4 for the penium chips Pentium right?

00:24:56.96 Jon Yeah.

00:24:57.65 Stan Lemon Pentium 2 was gangbusters crazy.

00:24:58.80 Jon Which which you have to experience. You can't see it.

00:25:04.62 Stan Lemon No, you can't see it. and But people talked about it in such a way as you're like, I have to go try this, right? And I remember visiting a friend and trying Pentium 2 computer and being like, wow, this is next level. And then the Pentium 3 came out and it was it was like even more mind-boggling.

00:25:23.18 Stan Lemon And then the P4 came out. and And honestly, when the Pentium 4 came out, I believed that I would... in This is little Stan, right? This is like... Henry, my my son, like Henry level Stan, right?

00:25:36.46 Stan Lemon I believe that there was no universe in which we would ever need something more powerful than the Pentium 4 because it could just do so much, right? And here here we are, um and i have a I have a smart Anker charging hub on my desk that has a chipset that is more powerful than the P4. I'm sure, I don't know, I could be making it up, but it like it makes sense to me right now in this moment, so I'm going with it, right?

00:26:02.16 Jon All right.

00:26:03.53 Stan Lemon but But for sure on my phone, yeah.

00:26:03.75 Jon But for sure in your phone.

00:26:07.53 Jon Apple Vision Pro on your watch.

00:26:10.19 Stan Lemon i Oh, my watch is doing loops around the P4. So but it it evolved so quickly that you couldn't guess what was going to come next. And the iPhone was like that too, right?

00:26:22.23 Stan Lemon aye we have not had that We had not had that for a long time.

00:26:23.56 Jon Early days.

00:26:27.85 Stan Lemon And so every iteration of LLMs, of AI, is amazing, it's incredible. Like it's it's it's almost breathtaking. And again, this is gonna drop a week late, but as we record this, Gemini 3G's dropped, right?

00:26:44.29 Jon Yep.

00:26:45.35 Stan Lemon ah If you zoom out in the landscape of AI LLMs, there's just three big players, in my opinion, okay? We can argue about Grok here in a minute, but um you got ChatGPT, OpenAI, right?

00:26:59.36 Stan Lemon They are they're the clear leaders in every way, shape and form.

00:26:59.53 Jon Come.

00:27:03.15 Stan Lemon First to market, they they clearly have the biggest penetration. i think, me personally, I think they have the best multimodal experiences today, right? i The vision stuff, solid.

00:27:17.48 Stan Lemon The conversational, like the voice conversation stuff, Unbelievable. The chat stuff, good, right? The coding stuff, great. They actually just today, as as ah as we talk about this. So GPT-5-1 came out, what, a few weeks ago?

00:27:31.18 Stan Lemon Today, they released like a specialized new Codex model. So they like even there this stuff is filled

00:27:37.64 Jon I haven't been in Codex today.

00:27:39.24 Stan Lemon yeah this stuff is so fast. i like I actually have a problem with Codex, so I'm on sidebar. I have a long running session, right?

00:27:44.96 Jon OK.

00:27:46.51 Stan Lemon And we've been doing good work, me and Codex.

00:27:48.62 Jon Yep.

00:27:49.61 Stan Lemon but it doesn't have the new model in the in the session i'm going on.

00:27:51.30 Jon Hmm.

00:27:52.91 Stan Lemon If I end the session, i don't have a good way to resume where I left off. So the struggle is real.

00:27:58.99 Jon Hmm.

00:28:00.42 Stan Lemon I'm trying to like encourage people

00:28:01.16 Jon I think that you can figure out a good way to end the session and pick up again.

00:28:05.10 Stan Lemon Probably, but my pattern with Codex lately has been, go do this thing, I'm gonna go 10,000 other things and then I'll come back to you, right?

00:28:11.91 Jon Right.

00:28:11.96 Stan Lemon So I need more than the 90 seconds that I'm gonna talk to Codex about in order to that. But I digress.

00:28:18.67 Jon You can find them I believe in you.

00:28:19.16 Stan Lemon All right, Gemini is the third, oh, sorry, I was only talking about Chai Chai Petit, but I didn't even get into Claude. Claude, Anthropic, right?

00:28:24.56 Jon Anthropic.

00:28:26.18 Stan Lemon So Claude is the number two contender, I believe. And I would say that Claude is a decent, ask question type of interface.

00:28:38.06 Stan Lemon When you get to the coding up until recently, it's been phenomenal. We've talked about the coding thing. And then you've got Gemini, right? Which is the secret sleeper to all those. And, um, I would say Gemini two five was decent.

00:28:52.36 Stan Lemon Like I didn't mind doing work queries through Gemini. Right. Um,

00:28:57.02 Jon OK.

00:28:58.63 Stan Lemon Gemini 3 is supposed to blow everything out of the water, supposed to be faster. Do you know what you with the thing that set Gemini apart, like even before 3, do you know you what the feature was, the killer feature?

00:29:08.60 Jon Context window.

00:29:11.19 Stan Lemon Ding, ding, ding. thought it was gonna take a little longer. A million tokens, right, if I recall. So the idea here, no, in 2.5, 2.5 had, no, 2.5 had a big window, right?

00:29:15.34 Jon and In three, right? That was new. They upped it in three? In two, they had it? OK.

00:29:22.89 Stan Lemon So, you know, you can do more longer, yada, yadda yada, yada. Awesome. Gemini 3 comes out, apparently a better model. And then maybe the the clutch thing is Google, who has Gemini Code Assist, which is the Claude Code Codex comparable, decide they decided they're going to go toe-to-toe with not just those guys, but the cursors, the windsurfs, which by the way, they also did a talent grab on windsurf, might have something to do with this next announcement, which is anti-gravity, right?

00:29:41.37 Jon Yep.

00:29:53.67 Jon Yes. Mm-hmm.

00:29:54.83 Stan Lemon Full-blown ID, VS code-based, no one's surprised. um i think they're I think they're going for Cursor. Cursor is the big contender in this space. this was This is kind of an exciting week in AI, in my opinion, right?

00:30:09.19 Jon It is. um i do not have a lot of experience with Gemini, um but basically when you put this on our list of topics to talk about, I looked and I'm intrigued.

00:30:21.90 Stan Lemon So about a month ago, i did a an experiment. Each day, i oscillated between Codex, Claude, and Gemini Code Assist, right? And I will say that Claude was spectacular, Codex was the cool kid on the block, and Gemini Code Assist was very clearly trying to catch up.

00:30:41.28 Stan Lemon um I got to go back and try a Gemini Code Assist, but I did download Antigravity. Antigravity, I think this i think this came out yesterday.

00:30:46.56 Jon It looks so cool, man.

00:30:48.79 Stan Lemon Is that right?

00:30:50.24 Jon Yes.

00:30:51.94 Stan Lemon Okay, so um I installed it within hours of the announcement on my personal laptop in case anyone from work is listening, just on my personal laptop. And I decided to run a couple of experiments.

00:31:06.61 Stan Lemon It seems promising, okay? So it wasn't like a knock it out of the park kind of thing. Here's what was cool though. Do you remember the first time I sent you a GitHub co-pilot agent task that included screenshots on the PR?

00:31:21.52 Jon I do.

00:31:22.23 Stan Lemon Yeah, it was cool, right?

00:31:23.73 Jon And it's cool.

00:31:24.69 Stan Lemon To be able to see the UI change. So I watched anti-gravity kick up a custom Chrome and do a visual analysis of the change I was asking to make.

00:31:37.04 Jon Mm-hmm.

00:31:38.93 Stan Lemon And then adapt based like, yeah so one of my problems was, hey, this looks great on my iPhone 17 Pro Max, but on my daughter's iPhone 11, the scrolling is screwed up, right?

00:31:51.89 Stan Lemon And I kid you not, I watched his anti-gravity based upon the prompt, resize the window to iPhone 11 screen dimensions.

00:32:00.27 Jon Nice.

00:32:01.75 Stan Lemon and and detect the problem, right? And I purposely did not give it a lot of detail in the prompt beyond this, like my daughter can't see which team to root for on Pick'Em on her iPhone 11.

00:32:13.39 Stan Lemon that was That was what I said, right? um And it figured it out, man. And it it iterated on it and i I watched the whole thing go. There's something, whatever they've done, they've taken the capabilities of a editor like Cursor, the smarts of something like Cloud Code, and they've mirrored it with basically the agent capabilities that we're seeing in stuff like Atlas and Perplexity's Comet, all in all in a ah planning and executing experience.

00:32:44.66 Stan Lemon So-

00:32:44.72 Jon Yeah, so I watched the intro video, um which was pretty great, like the basics or whatever. And just going from like your agent configuration, you can go into the editor if you want to um which it seems like ideally maybe you never want to. um the whole testing agent ah going through and actually doing like UX testing and ah doing it in the browser. And then this walkthrough where it basically summarizes, hey, this is what I did. And here's the screenshot as kind of the recap. um There is super powerful. And I think that it takes specifically some of your hobby stuff to a new level because you can do it all

00:33:28.82 Jon in a prompt or with multiple agents running at the same time um and go from there. um So it looks super cool. I'm interested. um Right now it is in public preview for $0. I'm very interested to see what this looks like after that.

00:33:47.41 Stan Lemon for $0 and the limits are super generous. So they they like, this is a throat throat punch to Cursor, to Claude and to Codex because their limits are such that I really have no compelling reason to go try the others, right? And and already like Codex is pretty pretty competitive in my opinion.

00:34:11.29 Stan Lemon Claude is a little lagging here. i think I posted about that on LinkedIn. I'm happy to go into all that again. But ay they absolutely went for the jugular.

00:34:21.41 Stan Lemon Like I'm fascinated to see how plays out.

00:34:24.59 Jon And it's Google. So...

00:34:26.44 Stan Lemon It's Google. Yeah, they got, they're they're still printing money, right? They're still printing money. All you DuckDuckGo fans have not even put a dent in Google, right?

00:34:31.75 Jon Still printing money.

00:34:36.39 Jon They've got how many like employees who would be users of things like this too, where they can gather feedback and like that. it It's crazy, man.

00:34:47.25 Stan Lemon Oh, 1,000%. wonder what Sam's up to. What do you think the odds of that Sam listens to the podcast?

00:34:50.48 Jon Ooh, we should talk to him.

00:34:52.01 Stan Lemon Probably probably low.

00:34:53.17 Jon Probably will. I don't know if he would have any way, unless he subscribed and we just showed up in his podcast feed again, but don't know if he has any way to keep up with where we post.

00:35:02.10 Stan Lemon Yeah. if Sam, if you happen to listen, I'd love to know. I mean, you probably can't tell me. You're probably under like 17,000 different NDAs. But I would love to know if you have tried the the new anti-gravity and how it works internally.

00:35:19.99 Stan Lemon So just just let me know. Just let me know.

00:35:22.58 Jon Yeah. How is the code, Stan? Have you have you done it a lot?

00:35:29.09 Stan Lemon Well, ah limited lu experience, what I would say is the things I did, um it was succinct and narrowly focused. And that's a good thing considering some of the the ways that Claude in particular has gone off the rails.

00:35:44.89 Stan Lemon Codex used to go off the rails. It's been been like honed in pretty well. But yeah, i it it did exactly what it needed to do and it didn't get inspired to go do more.

00:35:57.41 Stan Lemon right And so so that that in and of itself is a feature and I'm pretty pleased with it. I got to do some more. like it's It's pretty early days. i need i need to do i need I need to go build a project, like a ahzz soup to nuts project.

00:36:06.27 Jon I think... the

00:36:08.99 Jon i think

00:36:12.09 Stan Lemon Sorry, so sorry, sorry.

00:36:13.47 Jon Go. Finish your thought.

00:36:14.91 Stan Lemon Well, I need, what I really need is a, cause all I did was a a go patch this thing that's broken. I need to start from a vanilla project and see how it works. Right. And I just, I haven't had the time to do that. Um, so, you know, early days, that's what I'd say early days.

00:36:33.66 Jon The other thing that caught my eye in like this video that I watched, I haven't actually gotten in on the, i did download and install it, but I haven't done anything in it yet.

00:36:44.64 Jon Um, was this comment injection thing where you like send it off on this prompt, but then you can like add something while it's running.

00:36:56.07 Jon It's like, Oh, and change the title while you're at it or do something like that. And then it like, puts it into sequence where it makes sense and it kind of adds into this. Did you see anything like this?

00:37:06.45 Jon OK.

00:37:07.49 Stan Lemon I have not tried that yet. um Yeah, no, i'm i' I mean, I can only imagine. I'm sure it's great, right?

00:37:15.10 Jon I think that part of what you do, though, is you have good plans and you have kind of the whole thing to do sequentially.

00:37:22.97 Stan Lemon have I think I have decent plans and I have to have them because you you don't have the ability to insert yourself into the middle of thinking. Right? And so that's that's where the common injection thing, I think, I think that's the intention, right? Is like to be able to collaborate with it midstream.

00:37:41.31 Stan Lemon Could be huge. It's, a I think it's novel. i You know, I don't know anybody else that's doing it that way. oh

00:37:51.04 Jon Well, even just like the chat interface and chat GPT, I have all these times where it's like composing its reply and it's like, oh, I need to change something and you you can't interrupt it.

00:38:00.48 Stan Lemon you You actually can't hit the button to send. Yeah, you can't.

00:38:03.66 Jon Right.

00:38:03.90 Stan Lemon Yeah, So, um and this this actually, I think, is a good segue. So I think we have, um there's a model training arms race. There's an inference arms race.

00:38:16.11 Stan Lemon There's an efficiency arms race. The next thing is when these things just be good become good at answering questions, then we start to do a features arm race. Comment injection is a features arm race.

00:38:31.76 Stan Lemon Eventually, just like the the war, the race, whatever, between iOS and Android, we will run out of features to battle. And this has been on my mind, what happens when that when that occurs.

00:38:45.47 Stan Lemon I think we wind up in ecosystem and integration wars, right? And Google has a huge heads up, huge just advantage in that.

00:38:55.87 Stan Lemon So they can be behind on Gemini. I don't think they're actually behind in in terms of Gemini 3, just anecdotally, right?

00:39:02.56 Jon Sure.

00:39:02.97 Stan Lemon But there's ah there's a point where they turn this corner and they have i you know critical mass because they have docs, they have Gmail, they have calendar and they're just there.

00:39:18.78 Stan Lemon And now reportedly they have Apple too, right?

00:39:22.82 Jon Yep.

00:39:23.01 Stan Lemon And so, we're gonna continue to do this song and dance with the LM race, but a certain point I think It's gonna run its course and Google's gonna be there with a really, really crazily integrated platform.

00:39:41.53 Jon Yeah, and I think the other thing that Google does really, really well is they service both the consumer and the business um and will actually test things out on the consumer side before they can go, you know, like make money on the business side.

00:39:59.45 Stan Lemon Yeah, i can't remember if we talked about this last time, but they they have this way of build something for consumer grade and then try and promote it into the business ecosystem. Microsoft does the complete opposite, right?

00:40:09.73 Stan Lemon They build a business grade platform and then they try to like push it down into consumer grade stuff.

00:40:14.53 Jon Yeah, we didn't talk about Microsoft's AI at all.

00:40:14.73 Stan Lemon There's pros and cons.

00:40:19.04 Stan Lemon is John, does does Microsoft have an AI?

00:40:23.29 Jon I believe so. I mean, so Copilot does things.

00:40:24.80 Stan Lemon Yeah?

00:40:26.95 Jon um There's nothing as far as ah code writing and things like that, but I think they're also using some of the AI stuff in Azure and kind of at the Enterprise Clouds situation.

00:40:27.80 Stan Lemon It does, thanks, yeah.

00:40:42.18 Jon So yeah. there They could be a sleeping giant, um but I think they are trying to accomplish something different than what Gemini, Claude, and OpenAI are trying to do.

00:40:55.05 Stan Lemon How's your windows phone doing right now?

00:40:57.44 Jon Yeah, doesn't exist.

00:40:58.75 Stan Lemon Yeah. All right.

00:40:59.83 Jon Zune?

00:41:01.16 Stan Lemon Zune. Yeah. You like your Zune?

00:41:02.91 Jon Right.

00:41:03.61 Stan Lemon So here's, here's my take. Copilot is a brand. It is not a technology. You go and look at GitHub, Visual Studio code, maybe even Visual Studio, if it ever finishes installing on my new windows PC.

00:41:16.86 Stan Lemon Um, And what you'll see is a ah multi-model approach. And actually, you know, we we talked about this last episode, the Decoder podcast. They actually talked to some folks from Microsoft microsoft and within the last six months about but all this, right?

00:41:33.93 Stan Lemon And Amazon too, they did the same thing. They hedged their bets on being able to do multi-model, which means they can use GPT, They can use Claude and they can use whatever else comes to be, right? So if you go open up Visual Studio Code and you have a co-pilot subscription right now,

00:41:51.74 Stan Lemon and you pop open the the chat, Copilot chat, right? There's a way to select a model, and you are gonna see a bunch of options. You're gonna see GPT-4-1, you're gonna see GPT-4-0, 5-mini, you're gonna see Claude Haiku 4.5, Sonnet 4, Sonnet 4.5, Gemini Pro, Fast 1, okay?

00:42:04.89 Jon Got

00:42:12.83 Stan Lemon g p t five g p t five codec preview and even groc code fast one okay You can also do auto and you get, you know, like let it choose, right? That's just, you're you're setting yourself up for failure there.

00:42:28.74 Stan Lemon aye That's the bet that they've made on the developer side. Now, whatever is going on with the Windows side with Copilot, from what I've been able to tell, the reviews have been astonishingly bad,

00:42:40.06 Stan Lemon And ah that could change, absolutely could change. I chalk... the whatever homegrown co-pilot thing Microsoft is doing to c Siri, right?

00:42:51.10 Stan Lemon So it is the hope of something better. It is unrealized potential and it is generally a disappointment.

00:43:01.82 Jon Okay. The other one we didn't talk about, which also i think is in a different lane, um would be perplexity. Have you done anything with perplexity?

00:43:13.09 Stan Lemon I've used Perplexity. In fact, um I may actually have Comet, their browser installed right now. I'm not sure. um Perplexity is a weird beast because they straddle all of the models, right?

00:43:24.22 Stan Lemon So you can go, yeah, i do have Comet.

00:43:24.63 Jon Hmm.

00:43:25.50 Stan Lemon I'm just checking that Comet installed right now. um But they also supposedly have their own thing. And ah most of my experience with Perplexity, it's like it's transparent in terms of what version, like what model you're using, right?

00:43:41.69 Stan Lemon they have leaned in heavily on search more than the other, you know, modalities. um I don't know whether or not we take them seriously or not, John, to be completely honest with you.

00:43:53.77 Jon OK.

00:43:54.62 Stan Lemon There are some folks who...

00:43:54.68 Jon I mean, and only time will tell because we wait two months and everything has shuffled again.

00:43:55.62 Stan Lemon wouldn

00:43:58.75 Stan Lemon Everything changes. but here's Here's the thing, though.

00:43:59.66 Jon so

00:44:01.31 Stan Lemon Folks that I knew two months ago who loved perplexity, they're all in. like they I mean, perplexity is one of these things. It's it's like... um What's a good niche movie that that people, Firefly, okay? It's like Firefly.

00:44:17.53 Stan Lemon So those of us that watched Firefly, we believe that Firefly is the best science fiction ever written and put on screen, right? Okay, all right. And I love Star Trek. I like Star Wars.

00:44:31.82 Stan Lemon Firefly's the best, hands down. But that is a very, very niche perspective. That's where the perplexity crowd falls into. And they're they're devout, right?

00:44:43.05 Stan Lemon Firefly has, what it it hasn't been on the air for 20 some years. Right?

00:44:49.46 Jon Yeah, we could be pushing 30 now and have to see what year it was.

00:44:51.93 Stan Lemon No, isn't that long? Okay, all right, I'm gonna look this up while we go. But like, and and I'm still sitting here telling you that even strange worlds, strange new worlds that I love, 2002, holy mother of pearl.

00:45:05.60 Stan Lemon All right, 2002, not 30 years, not 30 years.

00:45:07.77 Jon So not 30 yet. Okay.

00:45:09.85 Stan Lemon But um even Strange New Worlds that I love is second fiddle to Firefly, which is okay. But that's a very niche perspective. And I feel like the perplexity camp falls into that bucket.

00:45:22.49 Stan Lemon Those people...

00:45:22.72 Jon And really, the problem Firefly'd in air long enough for Joss Whedon to mess it up.

00:45:31.19 Stan Lemon 1000%, listen, that's an entire season of this podcast that we could go into. Maybe we should actually spin up a sub-podcast that's just analyzing Firefly because I feel like we could do that forever.

00:45:41.25 Jon There we go. Rewatch podcast.

00:45:43.92 Stan Lemon Oh man, such a great show, such a great show.

00:45:46.86 Jon Stan, I think we need to do this. um And like I think we can do it as a sub-brand.

00:45:52.76 Stan Lemon Sub-brand, so the the Firefly Watchcast.

00:45:53.68 Jon Yeah.

00:45:55.98 Jon Sure.

00:45:56.06 Stan Lemon ah life with a Life with a twist of Firefly.

00:45:59.33 Jon Do you think Finker would join us?

00:46:02.01 Stan Lemon Is he still alive?

00:46:03.61 Jon I think so.

00:46:03.62 Stan Lemon No, just kidding. I'm just kidding. I know he's out there. um Oh, he absolutely would. He absolutely would. You know, so this is how, he's how I got into Firefly. He shows up at my house, I kid you not, in 2007.

00:46:11.73 Jon Oh, yeah?

00:46:13.98 Stan Lemon two thousand and seven And he swears to me, because remember, he and I watched Star Trek in the dorms together. Like we we bonded deeply over Star Trek. And he tells me that he's found a show greater than the next generation. And I tell him, you're bald-faced liar, take it back. Right? Right.

00:46:30.17 Stan Lemon And he is good.

00:46:30.43 Jon you think Do you think that we should rename our group chat to the Browncoats?

00:46:36.85 Stan Lemon Oh, I wonder how long it would take him the take him to catch it.

00:46:37.89 Jon It ah

00:46:40.13 Stan Lemon But but he he swore to me that it was the best thing since sliced bread. And he actually had me watch the show Serenity or the movie Serenity first, which was a mistake on his part.

00:46:49.31 Jon was, yeah.

00:46:50.17 Stan Lemon Yeah, mistake on his part. um But we eventually then got her back around to the show. And I didn't like Serenity until I watched the show twice through.

00:46:59.37 Jon Mm-hmm.

00:47:00.19 Stan Lemon um I didn't like the movie, sorry. sorry But yeah, it was amazing, right? And Fanker loved Buffy. I think you like Buffy too, right?

00:47:09.13 Jon I do like Buffy.

00:47:09.92 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah, okay. i've I've seen half an episode of Buffy.

00:47:14.27 Jon I liked Dollhouse too. um

00:47:17.69 Stan Lemon That's niche. That's crazy niche. That's more niche than perplexity users, right?

00:47:22.70 Jon Right. The problem with Dollhouse is it just never moved anywhere fast enough. So yeah.

00:47:27.84 Stan Lemon Yeah, well, Joss Whedon, he's just killing one franchise after another. Let him touch Star Trek and it's all just done, right? um Okay, so perplexity.

00:47:41.28 Stan Lemon No, he didn't touch Star Trek.

00:47:42.94 Jon That was G.J.

00:47:42.97 Stan Lemon that was That was Abrams.

00:47:43.59 Jon Abrams, Lensflare guy.

00:47:44.05 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he touched um Marvel, right?

00:47:45.98 Jon He did Marvel.

00:47:48.00 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, I don't have time for that. we're this We're not a Marvel podcast. We're not a Marvel podcast.

00:47:56.99 Jon So far, we've been an AI podcast, which I guess is okay.

00:47:59.11 Stan Lemon Yeah.

00:48:00.15 Jon There's just probably a lots of those right now.

00:48:00.93 Stan Lemon Is Liz listening? Have you have you heard? does liz Is Liz listening?

00:48:03.84 Jon I don't know. She liked um the kind of teaser we put out um on Facebook and was kind of shocked.

00:48:09.85 Stan Lemon Everybody liked the teaser.

00:48:11.52 Jon they were They were shocked that we were coming back because we kept it on the DL. so

00:48:16.73 Stan Lemon I mean, I feel like it was kind of spontaneous. But but anyhow, any Liz, we're not going to do 16 weeks of Marvel or 32 weeks of Marvel or whatever it is, right? So I'm just...

00:48:25.84 Jon I did watch Fantastic Four.

00:48:28.09 Stan Lemon Oh, they did?

00:48:29.09 Jon I did.

00:48:29.85 Stan Lemon Oh, you did? Do you want to talk about it?

00:48:30.94 Jon Yeah. Not really. It was okay.

00:48:33.37 Stan Lemon Not really. Yeah, don't either. But I will tell you.

00:48:34.81 Jon It was better than all the other Fantastic Four movies.

00:48:37.95 Stan Lemon Yeah, but that's like saying, you know, I can't say what I...

00:48:42.40 Jon like saying it was better than Voyager.

00:48:44.40 Stan Lemon We're not going to bleep this out, so can't say what I was going to say.

00:48:45.28 Jon yeah

00:48:48.52 Stan Lemon Funny thing though, John, I just saw that the Fantastic Four movie is now available in 3D and so you can watch on the Vision Pro.

00:48:56.75 Jon That's how I watched it.

00:48:57.79 Stan Lemon Oh, it is. officer shoot.

00:48:58.90 Jon Yeah.

00:48:59.77 Stan Lemon All right, here we go. So I have long believed that movies were a joke, right?

00:49:01.89 Jon It was cool.

00:49:08.64 Jon And they were.

00:49:08.81 Stan Lemon Gimmicky at best, 100%.

00:49:10.05 Jon Yep.

00:49:10.88 Stan Lemon you You watch them on the Vision Pro and you finally get it. Like it's exactly what you want it to be. It's pretty amazing. Yeah.

00:49:19.90 Jon We got to talk about Division Pro one of these too because that happened during the hiatus.

00:49:24.35 Stan Lemon Yeah, we'll have to we have to wipe the dust off of the device first though.

00:49:28.18 Jon Dude, I use mine every week. Mostly to watch things, but...

00:49:30.21 Stan Lemon it I do too, but I feel like you went on a longer hiatus than I did.

00:49:35.82 Jon Maybe.

00:49:36.45 Stan Lemon Maybe, all right. Okay, so Gemini 3, anti-gravity, cool stuff, common injection. that That could be, that that might be the killer feature, we'll see. Yeah.

00:49:48.61 Jon It was so cool, Stan. So cool.

00:49:51.84 Stan Lemon I wanted, before we lose lose the plot here, you got to experience Codex going off the rails, I think for the first time this week, right?

00:50:03.45 Jon I did. um and what's interesting here is I am not a software architect. I wouldn't land a job as a steps staff developer.

00:50:15.68 Stan Lemon Software engineering. but yeah just more first First, you got to know what the name is of the title that you're going for.

00:50:16.61 Jon Yeah. ah um

00:50:21.79 Stan Lemon but yeah, all right, you you're doing fine.

00:50:22.17 Jon so Whatever. um So like the code that I know um has been Stan graciously walking me through relatively simple things, um mostly on the web, not any heavy app development, things like that.

00:50:37.76 Jon So Codex, mind boggling to me because, like hey, I can say what I want it to do, and it goes and does it. So we were working on the Twist of Lemon Pod website, trying to do some SEO improvements, things like that, specifically around canonical URLs.

00:50:56.13 Jon um So I said, hey, here's what I'm getting in Google Search Console. Go fix these things. And it does something that I thought was kind of weird. So with that technical knowledge, it's like, ah that doesn't seem like the right way to do it. um At which point I tagged you in um because I said, hey, Stan, this seems weird to me. so

00:51:19.39 Stan Lemon Well, and what's funny about this, as this is going on, right, you you hit me up and I didn't understand your intention. So I was like, John, like, why are you bothering me when you can just ask the robots?

00:51:31.45 Stan Lemon Right. And i it it took me looking at the PR to realize Codex had gone off the rails. You had spotted it and we needed to bring it back to Earth.

00:51:42.72 Stan Lemon um And it's fascinating because I really do think Codex could not have created a more complex way to solve the problem and also a less effective way because the way that it implemented was not going to work, right?

00:51:56.23 Jon Yep, and it would like break actual tracking and stuff too.

00:52:00.70 Stan Lemon Yeah. So yeah, this this is the thing, right? Like you have to be smart enough to analyze the work. And if you can't analyze the work, you shouldn't be using the tool.

00:52:12.54 Stan Lemon ah And that I think, um we've talked about this in the context of of other uses of LLMs. I think it was good for you to experience this on the coding side because this is the kind of crap that got me wrapped around the axle with Claude for about a week, right?

00:52:23.47 Jon Mm-hmm.

00:52:29.74 Stan Lemon Before I came up for Air. And, you know, anytime, this is this is where I think the the industry is at, at least and on the software side.

00:52:41.31 Stan Lemon We want these things to be multipliers. If we invest in the right level and skillset, we will have the people to validate the work, right? To direct the work and to validate the work. You need people who can direct the work so that these LMs and and whatnot know how to do the thing that we want done. And then you need people who can validate the work that has resulted to ensure that we can keep moving forward and we don't compromise quality or customer experience or whatever it is.

00:53:12.61 Stan Lemon And um I would say that historically we have, we've erred on the side of hiring and curating, growing code monkeys. Right. And and i'm I'm saying that as someone who loves to be a code monkey, like if I could just do code monkey work every single day, i would be the happiest version of Stan Lemon that John Kohlmeier's ever met.

00:53:33.02 Stan Lemon Right.

00:53:33.53 Jon And that has been true every time you've fallen into those couple weeks.

00:53:36.61 Stan Lemon every to Every time, every time I fall in school. Yeah. but But the industry is shifting to like direct the work, validate the work. But we've put these tools into the hands of people without getting that all sorted out, right?

00:53:50.30 Jon Right.

00:53:51.02 Stan Lemon And um when you do that, and you in particular don't have that validate side of it, you wind up with Codex, for example, building a canonical link solution that is unnecessarily complex and just straight up does not work.

00:54:10.41 Stan Lemon So my question you is, you caught it, right?

00:54:11.15 Jon But I caught this, Stan. I couldn't tell you why it was wrong, but I knew it was wrong based on intuition.

00:54:16.01 Stan Lemon Okay, and that that's fascinating.

00:54:16.69 Jon so

00:54:18.64 Stan Lemon So what what was it about it that caused you to want to ask for additional feedback?

00:54:26.64 Jon um So it's I think that just the sheer amount of like parsing it was doing for these yeah URLs doesn't make any sense with how what I know about SEO, right? Or how I've implemented ah seo improvements across the board um outside of code necessarily. So I think that I could sense that it was overly complex here and it seemed...

00:54:50.86 Jon off. um So it's it's weird because it was all intuition. It's like, this doesn't seem right. I tried to push Codex back a couple times and like at some point it said, yeah, this would be better if you spun it up on like Cloudflare or something like that but um and do it not on the front end. And it's like, eh.

00:55:11.66 Stan Lemon I think I've mentioned this before. i've got I've got a manager who told me, treat the LLM as your meth head intern. Right?

00:55:20.46 Jon Nice.

00:55:21.01 Stan Lemon i have I have to be reminded of that frequently because there are some times when i want to treat it like a really awesome executive business partner, right?

00:55:29.52 Jon yeah

00:55:29.53 Stan Lemon So a really awesome executive business partner will understand the gaps in your words and make magic on the other side. right I've seen this. i actually actually know an EBP who aye knows your next move. like i kind of I kind of would love to see her play chess because I'm pretty sure she would destroy Watson. right like that's I have no idea.

00:55:52.69 Jon Does she listen the podcast?

00:55:54.66 Stan Lemon i have no idea. Tati, if you're listening, i'm talking about you. So here's here's the thing. right So the LLMs are not that person. And if you treat them like that person, you will be disappointed because a the difference between a a good assistant and an LLM is understanding intent, desire, and outcome.

00:56:15.12 Stan Lemon All an LLM can do is get instructions and execute on them, right? There's no realm there for um nuance. There's no space to infer based upon the entire corpus of your existence.

00:56:32.01 Stan Lemon And

00:56:32.28 Jon LLMs do not do well with ambiguity.

00:56:34.99 Stan Lemon They don't do all the ambiguity. Whereas like an awesome, an awesome EVP, right? Will know how to overcome ambiguity and create success, right?

00:56:46.85 Stan Lemon That's not an alum. And I think i think this is this is where the the the term assistant, right? AI assistant, virtual assistant, whatever, is super misleading because they're not assistants.

00:56:54.83 Jon Sure.

00:56:59.60 Stan Lemon They cannot close that gap. I don't know. Maybe in our lifetime, there there will be some capability there. I don't know. um

00:57:08.11 Jon Yeah, I don't know, because there's something uniquely human about that, too. um

00:57:13.68 Stan Lemon thousand percent.

00:57:15.34 Jon And like, you've got to know when things don't fit in the normal algorithm as how you would normally process them, right?

00:57:24.01 Stan Lemon Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

00:57:25.39 Jon So I don't know if we'll ever get there.

00:57:25.79 Stan Lemon Yep.

00:57:27.31 Jon It will be cool. It will probably involve like chips in people's brains or something like that.

00:57:31.73 Stan Lemon Something like that, yeah.

00:57:31.81 Jon Yeah.

00:57:32.49 Stan Lemon A chip in Toddy's brain, right? And then she can just like completely dominate the universe. thousand percent, thousand percent.

00:57:39.05 Jon ah I think the other thing that I want to talk about here is like, we've got a bunch of really, really novice people playing with these tools and thinking, Oh, cool.

00:57:39.13 Stan Lemon All right.

00:57:47.73 Jon It can build this when they don't know what questions to have. They haven't spent the time banging their head against the wall, falling asleep and waking up with an idea, next idea to try at 2am, things like that.

00:58:00.70 Jon So I think that for those people who, you know, can build a WordPress site and use the page builder to do it, write some CSS, maybe some simple JavaScript scripts, um find something to continue to learn about software, about software design things like that.

00:58:23.25 Jon I thankfully have Stan Lemon who I can ask things about and who will review my PRs and things like that.

00:58:29.55 Stan Lemon the The problem is you you've got to give a little more clarity on like, hey, Stan, I'm asking the question versus, hey, I think the AI just went off the rails.

00:58:30.29 Jon i

00:58:38.55 Stan Lemon Can can you be the thing that like validates that they're off the rails? because

00:58:42.96 Jon i think right I think it's like, hey, I think this is wrong. I know. We we can do that better. But I'm i'm like doing this at 5 in the morning.

00:58:48.46 Stan Lemon Because you didn't really leave with that, right?

00:58:49.65 Jon so yeah

00:58:52.54 Stan Lemon So the if if you were tracking the progression on this, what happened was,

00:58:56.12 Jon But what if it was right, Stan? said, no, that looks fine.

00:59:01.20 Jon don't even

00:59:01.45 Stan Lemon So, okay. You sent this message and and i was like, all right, whatever.

00:59:06.20 Jon remember what I said.

00:59:06.21 Stan Lemon I don't have time for this.

00:59:07.25 Jon But it was like 6 a.m.

00:59:07.77 Stan Lemon And

00:59:08.37 Jon before I left for work.

00:59:09.58 Stan Lemon it was it was not It was not as clear as the LLMs have gotten a mind of their own.

00:59:09.61 Jon so yeah

00:59:14.98 Stan Lemon They've created crazy crap. And I need you to tell me it's crazy crap, right? If you had said, my intuition says, this is totally wrong. I need and and a subject matter expert to validate it.

00:59:25.81 Stan Lemon I would have looked at it then. Instead, it was multiple hours later. i was i was i was bored and I went to text you. and i was like, oh, maybe I should look at that PR. That's that's absolutely the progression.

00:59:37.49 Stan Lemon And I opened the PR and

00:59:38.00 Jon But that was fine, because I had to go to work.

00:59:39.85 Stan Lemon yeah Yeah, they were. But I opened up the PR and I was like, sweet.

00:59:42.00 Jon And I didn't merge it into Master, so

00:59:45.97 Stan Lemon We should talk about that too. So, so I looked at the PR. i was like, sweet mother of Pearl, what in the world are the robots doing? Right. And then we talked about it. So it was, it was a, it was like a weird way to get there.

00:59:56.27 Stan Lemon And the funny thing was later, you know, I, I pushed something directly to master or whatever. And you're like, Hey, why'd you do that? And, and I was, cause I was confident in the output. Right. then, then you were asking me like, well, when do you, when do you merge to master or not.

01:00:11.09 Stan Lemon And I realized that moment that, um, This had direct correlation to Codex going crazy. And um I don't have good answers for you yet, but I will just tell you this. Since you asked that, my brain has been so just like swirling around this idea.

01:00:31.12 Stan Lemon on i don't know, man. it Yeah. Yeah. Here we go.

01:00:37.01 Jon always test in dev like

01:00:38.80 Stan Lemon Yeah. Always just the...

01:00:39.05 Jon um

01:00:40.85 Stan Lemon I find myself in moments like this, grateful for the robots, but also even more grateful that I'm not like a lawyer or a doctor using this technology because because I think, I don't think we're there yet. Maybe Gemini 3 is the thing, but I don't think we're there yet.

01:00:59.82 Jon Yeah. Anyways.

01:01:02.45 Stan Lemon All right, we got we got one last topic. um

01:01:05.97 Jon Oh yeah. You made a new technology purchase, which will shock everyone who knows you.

01:01:09.71 Stan Lemon I did. So so just just to rewind, I sent you a text about this a week, week and a half ago.

01:01:17.17 Jon And I was not shocked.

01:01:19.18 Stan Lemon Oh, you so that's what I wanted to know. Because you you gave me like zero feedback, right?

01:01:21.42 Jon Okay.

01:01:24.53 Stan Lemon And so I don't know.

01:01:24.65 Jon Did you text me during the workday?

01:01:26.86 Stan Lemon I don't remember what it was. But but my MO is like, okay, I'm going to go do a thing. It's a little outside of my norm, right? if If Sarah thinks it's crazy, then I go to John, right?

01:01:42.22 Stan Lemon And I would say about, with as far as like asking Sarah, is this crazy? It's about 50% of the time she says yes, okay?

01:01:48.93 Jon Right.

01:01:49.68 Stan Lemon so So then I go to John and we iterate, we iterate from there. So Sarah thought I was joking. When said, hey, i'm I'm thinking about buying a Windows PC. And, and I said, no, I really am. And we went through this cycle several times over the course of two, three days.

01:02:07.18 Stan Lemon Right. And finally I like, okay, I gotta go, i gotta go to John, see whats see what's going on. And I said to you that I was going to do this. And then you really didn't say anything. There was, there was no feedback, like you're crazy.

01:02:16.21 Jon Okay. Absolutely.

01:02:18.13 Stan Lemon You know, your son's middle name is Mac. None of this, right? No questions as to why I would do this. And, um,

01:02:26.19 Jon Again, my intuition tells me this makes sense. So...

01:02:29.81 Stan Lemon Okay, all right. i have to understand why it makes sense because the notion of me buying a Windows PC, my my my daughter, my oldest child, pulls me aside said, Dad, I'm so confused. Why did you do this thing? I don't understand what's wrong. And she talked to me like either I was dying of a terminal illness or like this is what a midlife crisis looked like. this this it might And when she was done, my son goes to the same rigmarole, right?

01:02:54.77 Stan Lemon And his his middle name was literally Mac.

01:02:55.32 Jon Yep. Mac.

01:02:57.26 Stan Lemon but But Henry, to his credit, or maybe discredit, I'm not sure, like that's that's for you, dear listener, to decide, says, okay, dad, but if you're goingnna do that, can I play some Xbox games on it?

01:03:07.60 Stan Lemon Right?

01:03:08.11 Jon Nice.

01:03:09.52 Stan Lemon And Evelyn's like, what's wrong with your phone? Right? this This is the progression to the household. And... um i I ordered the thing.

01:03:21.01 Stan Lemon it came to the house. It arrives and everybody, everybody acts like, what is going on? Confusion, right? As if I have completely changed in a heartbeat.

01:03:30.75 Jon All

01:03:34.74 Stan Lemon Meanwhile, Henry's like, can just play some games when you're done, right?

01:03:38.31 Jon right.

01:03:39.89 Stan Lemon Why were you not shocked? Why did it make sense?

01:03:41.42 Jon So I think, I think there's a couple of things here. one in your family responded the way they did um because you are fully Mac household and have been for the kids entire lives.

01:03:55.72 Stan Lemon And passionately so, right?

01:03:56.22 Jon Right.

01:03:57.37 Stan Lemon Like I look down upon you Android people.

01:03:58.92 Jon Like,

01:04:02.41 Jon um So there there's,

01:04:02.99 Stan Lemon chezz did yeah If Danchez is listening, did you hear that?

01:04:07.05 Jon I think Dantres has an iPhone now.

01:04:07.31 Stan Lemon All right. Oh, really? Oh, well, but welcome to welcome to the fan.

01:04:11.21 Jon Maybe? No, he got an iPad. well i don't remember. i

01:04:14.80 Stan Lemon Danchez, if you're listening, you got an iPhone, welcome to the fan.

01:04:15.57 Jon ah

01:04:17.16 Stan Lemon All right.

01:04:18.41 Jon So um there's that. Like I work on a Windows laptop. every workday, um unfortunately. But it's what I do. um So there's that.

01:04:28.73 Jon I think the other part of this is we've been talking on a fairly regular cadence for nearly 20 years now. So Sarah has been talking to you longer. um But I think there are times when I know you better than you know yourself.

01:04:44.67 Jon um

01:04:44.91 Stan Lemon Yeah.

01:04:45.58 Jon Specifically when you're trying to present yourself as something, which I know that's not what Santa actually really thinks. Yeah. So I know at your core, you love technology and playing with it. You are a Starship engineer. um You want to take things apart. You want to see how they work.

01:05:05.78 Jon Things like that. So I think all of those, like, yeah, that makes sense. And you like, you've got um no problem buying another device. And like, when you're done, you'll get rid of it.

01:05:16.26 Jon um you did this You did this with um Android phones when you were testing out iOS apps.

01:05:16.59 Stan Lemon Not get rid of it, no big deal.

01:05:22.03 Stan Lemon I did, yeah, that's true. Way, way, way back in the day. um Yeah, you're spot on. So i there there was ah there's actually an event that precipitated this, which was a little bit of nostalgia. I find as I get older, I get a little more nostalgic.

01:05:35.48 Stan Lemon You've accused me of being nostalgic in the past, and I've denied it, but you've been absolutely right.

01:05:39.53 Jon like i said sometimes i think i know you better than you know yourself

01:05:41.81 Stan Lemon Yeah. Well, there you There you go. ah I had... so So I started coding... um Well, all right. Technically, i started coding on one of the original iMacs in like the gel-colored ones.

01:05:58.92 Jon Colorful ones? Yeah.

01:06:00.00 Stan Lemon Yeah, yeah, In the library in my elementary school in fourth grade, right?

01:06:04.96 Jon Man, do you remember how big those things were?

01:06:07.98 Stan Lemon They weren't... they John, they weren't that big.

01:06:10.91 Jon Compared to what you use now?

01:06:11.27 Stan Lemon you' No, okay, like the whole device, but but the screen itself was like a, what, a 12.1 CRT or something like that?

01:06:12.57 Jon Oh, right. Yeah.

01:06:17.84 Jon all right yeah

01:06:18.63 Stan Lemon Yeah. No, it was a big device. It was a huge device. And the crazy thing was it had that little handle in the back, right, so you could pick it up. Yeah, because you're going to carry this thing somewhere.

01:06:24.75 Jon like you wouldn move it around right

01:06:27.66 Stan Lemon I don't know. um That was technically the first time i experimented with with a website, and I did a bunch of, like, website stuff thereafter on a variety of computers.

01:06:38.06 Stan Lemon The first time that I wrote... code to write software, in my opinion, software, right? um Was actually on a 14 inch Hewlett Packard HP laptop that had an AMD Athlon 4 processor in it.

01:06:56.03 Jon Nice.

01:06:56.46 Stan Lemon And i had I had bought it my sophomore in between my sophomore and junior year of high school, right? I bought it myself. um And that was a workhorse for me for three or four years.

01:07:09.68 Stan Lemon I wrote a ton, an absolute ton of code.

01:07:12.37 Jon You like wrote a grading or attendance thing for your high school, didn't you?

01:07:12.72 Stan Lemon That's, yeah.

01:07:16.33 Jon Yeah.

01:07:16.40 Stan Lemon we did We did some grading software. We did a bulletin board thing. We did some curriculum website management. And and a lot of that, ah not the gradebook software. That was mostly Eric writing in that part. But the content management stuff, I all did on this laptop.

01:07:30.29 Stan Lemon And um I really like, i look back and that was that was where I learned how to be a coder, right? It was very different than the stuff I do now because the whole industry has evolved, but that's where I learned how to do it.

01:07:42.36 Jon Sure.

01:07:43.47 Stan Lemon And it was more than that too. was also like, how do I manage ops stuff, installing PHP, configuring Apache, like running all of MySQL, right? Doing early MySQL stuff, all of it, right?

01:07:53.29 Jon Getting your dev environment to actually function.

01:07:56.45 Stan Lemon learning Learning database stuff, all that was done in that laptop.

01:07:56.68 Jon Mm-hmm.

01:08:00.37 Stan Lemon Um, and a few weeks back, i don't, I don't even remember what the sequence was. They came up into conversation and I was describing this laptop and I realized the fondness which with with which I was describing it. Right.

01:08:13.39 Stan Lemon Uh, AMD Athlon, uh, it was their mobile processors of four. If you remember back in these days, there was like a war between Intel and AMD, um, And some people thought Intel was a ahead. Some people thought AMD was ahead. The Pentium 4 at the time was wicked fast, but unstable.

01:08:32.37 Stan Lemon So so it was very it was just a known thing that was going to crash, right? AMD also had better thermals, ah the thermal profile, right? On the mobile side in particular, which was huge back then because you know you you unplug your laptop and you're like I got an hour, right?

01:08:49.41 Jon Yep.

01:08:49.55 Stan Lemon um This laptop though also had a DVD read drive and it had a floppy drive.

01:08:56.08 Jon Nice.

01:08:58.02 Stan Lemon Okay.

01:08:58.72 Jon Yep.

01:08:59.28 Stan Lemon Which and it was, it was an inch, about an inch thick. So it was relatively thin. um So this, this was like the dream machine. And I agonized over finding this thing forever before I bought it.

01:09:12.30 Stan Lemon I cannot find any history of this computer existing.

01:09:18.45 Jon Hmm.

01:09:19.28 Stan Lemon Okay. I've hit up the LLMs. I have done Google. I've spent time on eBay. I can't find it. And that fact, it fascinates me that I can't find it.

01:09:31.15 Stan Lemon um Because I think back then, and I could be wrong about this, but I think that the number of laptops available, like the permutations were a little more flexible or a little more variable than they are today.

01:09:45.68 Stan Lemon um because I installed a Wi-Fi like slide-in thing on this, right?

01:09:50.16 Jon Oh yeah, absolutely. They had those extension slots or whatever.

01:09:52.81 Stan Lemon Yep, extension slots. And i also remember upgrading the memory in this, and I might've increased the hard drive size too, right?

01:09:58.83 Jon Yep.

01:10:01.01 Stan Lemon So this is this is like way, way back then. Like computing was just different um

01:10:08.14 Jon You can still increase memory in some laptops.

01:10:10.57 Stan Lemon in some.

01:10:10.67 Jon You should see if you can do in yours.

01:10:12.65 Stan Lemon No, cannot.

01:10:13.84 Jon okay

01:10:13.91 Stan Lemon It's all soldered to the the base, man. Oh, you're talking the new Lenovo?

01:10:17.33 Jon Yeah.

01:10:18.00 Stan Lemon Yeah, no, I don't think so.

01:10:18.67 Jon i know we know that We all know that Apple doesn't want you taking apart your computer.

01:10:20.88 Stan Lemon Yeah, Apple doesn't do that. Yeah, sorry, sorry. Lost the plot line.

01:10:23.57 Jon Yeah.

01:10:24.49 Stan Lemon um So, ah you know, thinking on this, I realized that i have no idea how Windows 11 works. Right? And pretty sure I don't even know how to navigate it That would, so this this is, this is one progression. There's another progression of thought, which is I meet my old manager from Salesforce, Rob, I don't know, a month and a half ago or something like that. We go out, have dinner, a couple of drinks. We just talk, catch up. And he shocks me by telling me that he's all in on Windows because of the Windows subsystem Linux, WSL.

01:10:56.85 Stan Lemon Have you used WSL?

01:10:58.25 Jon I'm not.

01:10:58.86 Stan Lemon Okay.

01:10:59.02 Jon I should. I don't do a lot of development at work, but.

01:11:01.61 Stan Lemon Okay, so this is fascinating to me, right? Like Windows ships with a working Linux subsystem.

01:11:07.75 Jon Yep.

01:11:08.40 Stan Lemon And um then I got to to ask myself, like, if I had Linux on a Windows laptop, what what would work, what wouldn't, right?

01:11:20.24 Stan Lemon And I didn't know the answer. i don't know how to validate the answer. Now that um Apple's all ARM64 based, right? The options to emulate are pretty limited. Bootcamp is gone. You remember Bootcamp?

01:11:33.82 Jon I remember WooCamp used it for a while.

01:11:34.73 Stan Lemon Yeah, Bootcamp was, that was, yeah, I did too. It was great, right? Like you could run Windows on literally the best Windows PC available at the time. Yeah. we're We're so past that, so i don't i don't know wow Windows acts. And i got curious. i just It is a thousand percent I don't know how to use that piece of hardware, and I want i want to understand it.

01:12:01.31 Jon Yep.

01:12:02.29 Stan Lemon I am ah four days into this experiment. Pretty confident that I am not going to give up on my beloved Mac. Pretty sure that Mac is still still the best. But I've learned something and I'm gonna continue to learn.

01:12:13.93 Jon Especially for what you do.

01:12:15.53 Stan Lemon Especially for it, yeah. Well, I mean, i don't know, mean like this is the thing, right? Maybe WSL lets me do the thing, yeah.

01:12:21.71 Jon What you do anyway.

01:12:23.01 Stan Lemon i

01:12:23.44 Jon I mean, and if we pull up a anti-gravity, then it's like, yeah.

01:12:29.77 Stan Lemon Could be, right? So what what are the what are the first things I installed on my Windows laptop? ChatGPT, Visual Studio Code, Docker, right? Then I installed Ubuntu for the Windows subsystem links, right?

01:12:41.21 Jon Come.

01:12:44.75 Stan Lemon um So those are the tools I use on my laptop right now, right? Those are the big three.

01:12:49.04 Jon Interesting. You should try to do something in PowerShell.

01:12:50.32 Stan Lemon And

01:12:53.49 Stan Lemon I mean, you're basically working a PowerShell to get to WSL, right?

01:12:57.36 Jon Okay.

01:12:58.25 Stan Lemon So so that's like that's that's the thing. That's the thing.

01:13:01.68 Jon So you just pull that up and then, interesting.

01:13:03.95 Stan Lemon Yeah.

01:13:03.97 Jon I'll have to try this out.

01:13:04.97 Stan Lemon Yeah. You should, you should. It's, it's fascinating.

01:13:07.56 Jon I wonder if I can try this out.

01:13:07.77 Stan Lemon it's a If they don't let you run WSL, you should just get a new job.

01:13:08.58 Jon I probably can't try this out on my work laptop. Okay.

01:13:16.24 Jon We'll

01:13:18.09 Stan Lemon It's, uh, so far it's been very educational, which was my goal. Right.

01:13:24.32 Jon see.

01:13:24.55 Stan Lemon Um,

01:13:26.25 Jon you design APIs, as anyone who's seen your APIs in pizza videos will know. um How much of that plays into this? Like, are the people who are using their product your product working in Windows environments at all?

01:13:42.24 Jon Do you know?

01:13:43.12 Stan Lemon Oh, I'm sure they are I'm sure they are um Windows has too much penetration for it to not be the case.

01:13:44.30 Jon Okay.

01:13:49.49 Stan Lemon ah And I wouldn't say that was like necessarily motivating here in terms of like people on Windows are using my APIs, but i you know the the through line on all the API piece of videos is i care about customer experience.

01:14:04.24 Jon Yep.

01:14:04.46 Stan Lemon right And I have a huge glaring a gap in my understanding of computing's customer experience. And I just want to fill that gap. I want to understand it. And so this is not like I'm going to use it every day kind of thing, but you know, I have it. I'm going to try it out.

01:14:25.20 Stan Lemon Now I will tell you there there were, I agonized a little bit over what model to buy as, as one would do.

01:14:32.62 Jon This also does not surprise me.

01:14:34.53 Stan Lemon Yeah. So wanted an SSD. I wanted a certain amount of memory. I wanted a certain processor. Cool. That's all fine. Here's the other thing that I wanted. I wanted two things that Apple will not give me yet.

01:14:47.02 Stan Lemon you know what they

01:14:48.61 Jon I don't.

01:14:50.03 Stan Lemon I wanted an OLED screen and I wanted a touchscreen.

01:14:54.16 Jon Interesting. OK.

01:14:55.66 Stan Lemon Because I can't, I don't know, like... It's not just a matter of me not knowing how Windows works. i've I've not used a laptop computer with an OLED display. I've not used a laptop computer with a touch display. I've used OLED on my phone and like I am so solidly OLED till death.

01:15:17.13 Stan Lemon And my my iPad now is OLED too, right? But my my Mac, they won't give it to me. And so um i wanted I wanted to see that. I wanted to feel i wanted to experience that. And and um I'll be honest with you, like that is noticeably cool.

01:15:30.48 Stan Lemon like i

01:15:30.93 Jon nice

01:15:31.44 Stan Lemon i use ah My PowerShell window is black, right? And those pixels are just straight up off. It's a beautiful display. The touch display thing, I am struggling to embrace because like I instinctively don't do it, right?

01:15:49.68 Stan Lemon But this is also part of the thing I wanna learn. I wanna try something new.

01:15:53.99 Jon Interesting. Well, we'll have to get an update on this at some point. Maybe you can commit to doing all of our ah Firefly rewatch podcast work on that.

01:16:06.45 Stan Lemon there Right now, that's an interesting idea. you know i don't think i've used the I don't think I've used the webcam on this thing yet. So um i't I have no idea.

01:16:14.11 Jon Okay.

01:16:17.10 Stan Lemon i mean, we should try, John. Why not? Oh, that reminds me.

01:16:19.25 Jon We should.

01:16:20.91 Stan Lemon um You probably at work don't use Windows Link, do you?

01:16:24.62 Jon We do not.

01:16:25.80 Stan Lemon Okay, are you familiar with Windows Link?

01:16:27.37 Jon ah Vaguely, yes.

01:16:29.80 Stan Lemon This thing is cool and clever, right? So this this is the kind of feature that tells me the folks at Microsoft are doing scrappy work to solve customer needs in a way that I don't normally attribute to Microsoft. So here's here's here's the deal. Windows Link, you install on your iPhone and on your Windows PC, you get access to calls, iMessages, and calendar fuelings, right?

01:16:58.67 Stan Lemon um So think about this. You can iMessage from your Windows PC.

01:17:05.57 Jon Nope.

01:17:06.93 Stan Lemon How, John? How does that work?

01:17:07.61 Jon Unheard of. Steve Jobs would not like this.

01:17:10.57 Stan Lemon He would not like this, but how does Windows, how does Microsoft pull this off? i've want like I've known that this thing existed and I haven't understood it until I tried it. You ready for this?

01:17:22.13 Jon Yeah.

01:17:22.34 Stan Lemon think we should drum roll. They treat the Windows laptop like a car. And so if you've ever used a car HUD, right? Not not CarPlay, but a car HUD where you get a message or you sync your contacts and you respond to a message using just the car interface.

01:17:41.13 Stan Lemon They basically turned the Windows laptop into a car and they use all of those protocols and APIs with an experience on your laptop. It's ridiculous, right?

01:17:51.20 Stan Lemon But it's so it's so freaking scrappy and cool that i when I saw it, I was like, I would never use this

01:17:51.67 Jon That's fascinating. That's great.

01:17:58.61 Stan Lemon But this is really, really ingenious.

01:18:01.79 Jon Yep.

01:18:02.41 Stan Lemon and And it gave me a little bit of appreciation, right? For what they're trying to do. Yeah. yeah And I can't even believe I'm saying that. Like I'm going have to pinch myself here that I'm, yeah.

01:18:15.21 Stan Lemon What a world. What a world.

01:18:16.57 Jon I

01:18:18.13 Jon i don't even know where to go from here, Stan.

01:18:19.47 Stan Lemon No, there's no way to go. Right. So I basically like I've broken everybody's perceptions of me and we should just, we should just wrap it up on that note.

01:18:28.17 Jon Wrap it up.

01:18:29.02 Stan Lemon Yeah. The next time.

01:18:29.45 Jon Until next time.

01:18:30.61 Stan Lemon Yeah. This is going to drop right before Thanksgiving. We'll talk about Thanksgiving afterwards and we will make sure to discuss pie because I think, um i think pie is the most important part of Thanksgiving.

01:18:41.26 Jon do love pie.

01:18:42.29 Stan Lemon I love pie. Pie's great. right, Jonathan, as always, it's been a pleasure. May the AI robots who lord over us all be kind to you in the coming week.

01:18:53.00 Jon And to you, Stanley.

01:18:54.50 Stan Lemon All right. See you, my friend.

01:18:56.15 Jon Here.

01:18:56.41 Stan Lemon and' Until next time.